EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

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I can see the sense in using copper bullets for deer and other game but what about foxes and other vermin.im not eating foxes and crows .its just a way too kill us and the gun trade off.hope the government sees some sense
 
I can see the sense in using copper bullets for deer and other game but what about foxes and other vermin.im not eating foxes and crows .its just a way too kill us and the gun trade off.hope the government sees some sense
But this is part of the problem - orgs such as the BASC, who should back the shooters and provide advice to the govt, have 'welcomed' non lead, despite them saying, prior to that no science no change.
 
Still not convinced on this idea that lead is a cause of leukaemia. All cancers are caused by genetic mutations to the DNA. There are plenty of other causes for this eg smoking/drinking/radiation etc. Considering Leukaemia is one of the main cancers in young children I cant imagine this is lead related when most kids have never seen a deer/pheasant let alone eaten one.
There is much work to be done here in proving any of this and I would suggest you all look at this with scepticism until there is stronger evidence as I haven't seen any.
Good old wikipedia:
There is no single known cause for any of the different types of leukemias. The few known causes, which are not generally factors within the control of the average person, account for relatively few cases.[34] The cause for most cases of leukemia is unknown. The different leukemias likely have different causes.

Leukemia, like other cancers, results from mutations in the DNA. Certain mutations can trigger leukemia by activating oncogenes or deactivating tumor suppressor genes, and thereby disrupting the regulation of cell death, differentiation or division. These mutations may occur spontaneously or as a result of exposure to radiation or carcinogenic substances.[35]
 
Still not convinced on this idea that lead is a cause of leukaemia. All cancers are caused by genetic mutations to the DNA. There are plenty of other causes for this eg smoking/drinking/radiation etc. Considering Leukaemia is one of the main cancers in young children I cant imagine this is lead related when most kids have never seen a deer/pheasant let alone eaten one.
There is much work to be done here in proving any of this and I would suggest you all look at this with scepticism until there is stronger evidence as I haven't seen any.
Good old wikipedia:
There is no single known cause for any of the different types of leukemias. The few known causes, which are not generally factors within the control of the average person, account for relatively few cases.[34] The cause for most cases of leukemia is unknown. The different leukemias likely have different causes.

Leukemia, like other cancers, results from mutations in the DNA. Certain mutations can trigger leukemia by activating oncogenes or deactivating tumor suppressor genes, and thereby disrupting the regulation of cell death, differentiation or division. These mutations may occur spontaneously or as a result of exposure to radiation or carcinogenic substances.[35]
Don’t ever rely on Wikipedia, literally anyone can contribute. Quoting it as fact just makes you look like you don’t know what you are talking about. If you want to research the mm research proper, published and peer reviewed papers.

Plenty of things that cause genetic mutation including exposure to some metals, lead exposure in parents is known to cause birth defects, who is to say it doesn’t cause leukaemia as well?
 
Don't worry Russia has thousands of steel bullets stockpiled which they assure the Eu they will use
.But only after they stop using the 100.000000 left from the cold War.
So thats all sorted Cheers mr Putin 🥳
 
Air rifle sales in Europe just dropped to zero then...

There are quite a few non lead airgun pellets available. I started using RWS tin pellets for shooting around farm buildings after I bought a tin by accident. There's no real difference to them and the ones I was using before.

Don't gut-shoot them.
I remove red offal in the field as well so there could be fragments in heart, lungs etc etc.

I don't really understand the fuss Lead isn't banned yet, keep using it if you like it. The copper/tin/brass/steel stuff for me has all been pretty good so far. I find the rifle ammo an improvement on lead as it happens as I get less carcass damage for the same killing power that I used to.

Shotgun cartridges have come on leaps and bounds. I plan to start homeloading TSS for my .410 as soon as I have the money to buy some. Vast improvement over lead shot in terms of pattern and energy downrange. Expensive though.

My only concern would be my .22lr. Iove shooting it and I use it a lot. I guess the closest alternative if lead ammo were to go tits up tomorrow would be FAC air?

Incidentally has anyone tried Lehigh defense non-lead? I noticed CDSG have them and they are really cheap. I'd be keen to try them.

I saw a bit about shot in vegetables earlier but can't find the post to quote from... We have had lettuces returned with lead shot in them. It can fall into the lettuce if you are shooting nearby. I'm not sure if our buyer would be any happier if it was steel shot mind you.
 
That's up to you. I don't. If you're worried about raptors, either do a green-only gralloch or use copper. Raptor lead-poisoning is not a sufficient risk for lead to be banned in the UK.
I do use copper.

I didn't say it was. I was just answering your assertion that a lot of people must be gut shooting.
 
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I saw a bit about shot in vegetables earlier but can't find the post to quote from... We have had lettuces returned with lead shot in them. It can fall into the lettuce if you are shooting nearby. I'm not sure if our buyer would be any happier if it was steel shot mind you.
The bit about lead shot in vegi's was about them absorbing lead from heavily lead contaminated soil. I don't think a lead shot rolling out of the leaves of a iceberg lettuce is going to kill anyone. There was a extensive trial done here of people eating lead shot game. No problem was found and they came up with the recommendation to clean the carcass well of blood shot meat and discard a 10cm area around the wound entrance and exit. Although mono metal bullets have improved trials have proved they are not as good as lead and the banning of lead will lead to less practice on the range. Shooting of lead was banned years ago on clay shooting grounds here in Sweden apart from a discipline called, jaktstig. This is because a metal target holder is used.
I do have a mono metal load for my double rifle because for some reason it was regulated with Lapua Naturalis. Naturalis must be one of the world most expensive 8 x57 round . I home load with Naturalis and they shoot and kill OK but no better than the lead round I have developed for the rifle.
I have a sneaking suspicion that banning lead by the EU is more to do with the squeeze on firearms than a public health issue .
 
Strange how the EU is not pushing for all lead pipes to be replaced by the water companies ?
More of us drink water that has been in a lead pipe than eat lead shot meat !
Wake up it’s not about lead contamination it’s about firearm ownership.
 
Given the thousands of tons of lead in the soil in northern France and Flanders, especially those areas in which agriculture is practiced, which is most of it ,if lead, in the form we shooters use, were to be deleterious to health of people that have lived there subsequently, surely we would have heard something about it by now . 🤔
 
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Given the thousands of tons of lead in the soil in northern France and Flanders, especially those areas in which agriculture is practiced, which is most of it ,if lead, in the form we shooters use, were to be deleterious to health, surely we would have heard something about it by now . 🤔
No, no, no Your bringing too much common sense to the argument. WW1 was a mere skirmish when you compere it to a days pheasant or pigeon shooting.
 
I do use copper.

I didn't say it was. I was just answering your assertion that a lot of people must be gut shooting.
The point put to me was about eagles on Scottish hills. The recovery can often be longer and dirtier than a lowland field-edge Therefore, the less one opens the carcass the better, in my experience.
 
No, no, no Your bringing too much common sense to the argument. WW1 was a mere skirmish when you compere it to a days pheasant or pigeon shooting.
Not just WW1 . WW2 had approx 300 million small arms rounds fired (in all theatres) A fair few of which would have been in the regions mentioned - eg Normandy
 
The bit about lead shot in vegi's was about them absorbing lead from heavily lead contaminated soil. I don't think a lead shot rolling out of the leaves of a iceberg lettuce is going to kill anyone. There was a extensive trial done here of people eating lead shot game. No problem was found and they came up with the recommendation to clean the carcass well of blood shot meat and discard a 10cm area around the wound entrance and exit. Although mono metal bullets have improved trials have proved they are not as good as lead and the banning of lead will lead to less practice on the range. Shooting of lead was banned years ago on clay shooting grounds here in Sweden apart from a discipline called, jaktstig. This is because a metal target holder is used.
I do have a mono metal load for my double rifle because for some reason it was regulated with Lapua Naturalis. Naturalis must be one of the world most expensive 8 x57 round . I home load with Naturalis and they shoot and kill OK but no better than the lead round I have developed for the rifle.
I have a sneaking suspicion that banning lead by the EU is more to do with the squeeze on firearms than a public health issue .
Me and a shooting friend had this very conversation more than 20 years ago .
 
What you are failing to see is that we never agree terms. We just retreat. Again and again. And they move forward some more. And we retreat...again. This is not a negotiation, simply because at no point will it be concluded. There is no point at which the other side lay down their weapons. That is, of course, until shooting is dead.
Spot on, banning shooting is the ultimate goal, the lead ban will go ahead, the EU has already mandated that lead is unsafe so no point in arguing, it’s a done deal. It doesn’t matter what the science says, the decision to ban is irrevocable.
Dont be shocked when some of those very clever arguments we submitted over the years touting the superiority of lead over the alternatives come back to haunt us as animal welfare issues.
 
But then to follow that line of questioning through what would be your suggestion, lead free for anything that goes into the food chain and carry on as before for the few quarry items that don't get eaten?

May as well go the whole hog!
I'm not sure about whether or not monolithics are better on wild boar, perhaps someone who shoots them regularly would care to comment?
 
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