And we didn’t all turn into v
s along the way either, eh. I was going to say mo.. er re.... Damn it this device is woke and censoring me and won’t let me speak plainly for fear of causing offence!Copper bullets - the limitations
- Thread starter NigelM
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s along the way either, eh. I was going to say mo.. er re.... Damn it this device is woke and censoring me and won’t let me speak plainly for fear of causing offence!Aye, if we were meant to eat vegetables only we would have teeth like a sheepAnd we didn’t all turn into v
Ronin
Distinguished Member
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I would just make a comment that there are bullets designed to deal with the specific issues you are complaining about, for example the peregrine VLR4:
As yet I haven't tested these bullets as I need to replace the barrel with a slightly faster twist barrel due to Tikka I am using using a slow twist barrel (1 in 11 rather than recommended 1 in 10 or faster) for the calibre to stabilise these properly, however this is a unique quirk of the Tikkas that the 300's have slower twist barrels than the standard 1 in 10?
Ben
- The Peregrine PlainsMaster boasts consistent, predictable expansion and weight retention independent of velocity or target animal. Velocities between 3400fps down to 1600fps have reliably been tested over the years.
- Due to its unique driving-band design, the PlainsMaster provides increased velocity, while offering less recoil and reduced pressure on the barrel and chamber. The softer material used serves to enhance barrel life in hunting rifles.
- This bullet will not fail, fragment or bend.
- The PlainsMaster is customized for reloading.
- The PlainsMaster retains 90% or more of its weight upon impact, and, as a result of the solid mushroom formation, which dumps most of its momentum and energy into the target animal.
As yet I haven't tested these bullets as I need to replace the barrel with a slightly faster twist barrel due to Tikka I am using using a slow twist barrel (1 in 11 rather than recommended 1 in 10 or faster) for the calibre to stabilise these properly, however this is a unique quirk of the Tikkas that the 300's have slower twist barrels than the standard 1 in 10?
Ben
Regarding your Quickload model Ben, for your .300 WSM.
Conventional wisdom when it comes to bullet manufacturers is “never believe everything it says on the packet”.
I would hate to think that anyone would buy a packet of monometallic bullets and decide that because the manufacturer says they “expand” at 1600fps, that a 750m shot is a good idea.
But, shooting deer at that range is unethical anyway, isn’t it?
Conventional wisdom when it comes to bullet manufacturers is “never believe everything it says on the packet”.
I would hate to think that anyone would buy a packet of monometallic bullets and decide that because the manufacturer says they “expand” at 1600fps, that a 750m shot is a good idea.
But, shooting deer at that range is unethical anyway, isn’t it?
Trigger260
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't bismuth or one of the other premium replacements used in shotgun shells do the job? Might be pricey but worth it! Use cheaper stuff for practice and varmints.
I know nothing
I know nothing
CarlW
Well-Known Member
I have previously asked the same question about tungsten/polymer. Found very little on the subject.Wouldn't bismuth or one of the other premium replacements used in shotgun shells do the job? Might be pricey but worth it! Use cheaper stuff for practice and varmints.
I know nothing
There have been some very valid points made in this thread. There are very definitely limitations to the performance of non lead bullets that relate to their design and it is imperative that these are considered and understood before using them on game. For normal UK use where I suspect that 99% of deer are shot inside 300m, good performance can be reliably attained using light for calibre bullets at a good muzzle velocity (my personal rule of thumb is 3000fps plus). If however shots are to be taken at ranges over 300-400 metres where terminal velocity is dropping below the 2300-2400fps mark then a fragmenting design such as the lead core Hornady SST or potentially the non lead prefragmented bullet design like the Le High controlled chaos (am I the only one where the name gives me the creeps!) or potentially the Peregrine or Nielsen design would be far more likely to create a rapidly fatal wound channel. It’s purely a case of using the right tool (bullet) for the right job. Clearly in NZ different hunting styles prevail and this will reflect in the choices of projectile. I am not at all surprised by the performance cutoff you report with the Barnes LRX @dodgyknees and that is very important information for us over here to be aware of so thanks for highlighting it to us. In my opinion the marketing of bullets leads a lot to be desired and this is especially so when it comes to the long range performance on game, which has developed into the latest fashionable activity to pursue with the bullet makers scrabbling for whatever share of the lucrative pie they can.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
All Remington, Bergara etc .300 magnums are 1 in 10 - I was referring to the .300 magnums rather than .308. 183 grain would be a tad heavy for the .308 to be optimal in most rifles and the 167 or 150 grain VLR 4 would probably be better suited as they can stabilise in a 1 in 12 .
I understand the need to be sceptical of potentially over zealous manufacturers information , however we have to start somewhere don't we? If we say they've over egged it and it only goes down to 1700 then we would get 700M by Applied Ballistics reasoning.
I am not going to get into another debate like this if you're just hoping to cause aggro. I was providing some information which may be of use to others should they wish to accept the risk of shooting deer at extended ranges.
Ben
my thoughts exactly, bottom line is that whatever the range you need to shoot game at, wherever you are in the world, it is worth putting a lot of care and research into your chosen projectile. Theres plenty of inappropriate lead bullets for long range shooting and theres probably very few lead free bullets for long range shooting, pick the right bullet for your application.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure about energy, but I’ve been led to believe that drag increases with the cube of velocity once you go supersonic?
@brave echo niner , QL seriously underestimates mv for all non-lead bullets with driving bands, predicted by QL 2857, found by chrono that load gave 3018fps. This due to the fact that the driving band produces less friction, and engraving a driving band requires less energy than engraving a normal bullet, even through the material is harder.
Most of the 'boutique' bullet manufacturers are using cnc machines, which whilst being capable of a high output, it is nowhere near as fast as the pressure forming process, and driving bands give problems for pressure forming in that they probably require a split mould to facilitate bullet release. This would be more expensive, complex and slower than the normal process. The advantages of CNC machining is that minor changes to the bullet shape can be made very easily,-a few lines of code have to be changed, as opposed to waiting for a new mould to be made and installed. Similarly a different sized calibre can be made merely by loading a different program and feedstock.
Most of the 'boutique' bullet manufacturers are using cnc machines, which whilst being capable of a high output, it is nowhere near as fast as the pressure forming process, and driving bands give problems for pressure forming in that they probably require a split mould to facilitate bullet release. This would be more expensive, complex and slower than the normal process. The advantages of CNC machining is that minor changes to the bullet shape can be made very easily,-a few lines of code have to be changed, as opposed to waiting for a new mould to be made and installed. Similarly a different sized calibre can be made merely by loading a different program and feedstock.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I have found this myself, with 130 TTSX in my WSM it predicted a max velocity of 3540, but i'm at 3650 with no pressure signs yet.
I have however corrected the model for the 183 Grain based off previous velocities attained with other non lead bullets, so it should be more accurate than a random calculation.
I would rather be slightly conservative with what I predict it will do as I would go to the best node rather than necessarily just the velocity!
Ben
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We go round and round with this but the progress is spiral and refined a little more each time.
"Parity" with lead bullets is wanting if you only consider the ballistic parameters of the materials that derive from their density....the ability to sustain energy at ranges beyond normal UK stalking.
The bullet manufacturers can, and do, change the physical properties of both copper and lead bullets. They cannot change the density of the elements, but the expandability of bullets and their energy transfer model depends far more on the design of the jacket and the alloying materials of the core, or the work hardened state and hollow point design of the mono metals.
At this level of debate the long range ballistic advantage of lead core bullet designs makes their close range performance more variable than mono metal. Too soft in order to fragment at long range, and they may blow up on the surface close to. Few designs manage both, as the comparison test of long range bullets @dodgyknees posted a few weeks ago. In that test the bullet that worked best below 300 was the copper mono metal...and it performed so much better at that range than the lead core bullets in the test, half of which scored less overall despite their performing better at 600 yards.
Much is dependent on the shooter's choice of appropriate bullet for the job...what is the advantage of using a bullet which "does its best work" below 2000fps if all your deer are at a range where the bullet is travelling at 2,800?
If you include the other advantages of lead free into the equation with their ability to deliver cleaner kills at the majority of normal UK stalking distances the "parity" with lead core bullets is well established.
Alan
Hopefully all bullet design will continue to be developed, but I can't see an 800 metre mono metal hunting bullet from copper with normal UK stalking chamberings. Probably need a bit of tungsten to give it legs. Expansion at low velocity is more readily dealt with though.
"Parity" with lead bullets is wanting if you only consider the ballistic parameters of the materials that derive from their density....the ability to sustain energy at ranges beyond normal UK stalking.
The bullet manufacturers can, and do, change the physical properties of both copper and lead bullets. They cannot change the density of the elements, but the expandability of bullets and their energy transfer model depends far more on the design of the jacket and the alloying materials of the core, or the work hardened state and hollow point design of the mono metals.
At this level of debate the long range ballistic advantage of lead core bullet designs makes their close range performance more variable than mono metal. Too soft in order to fragment at long range, and they may blow up on the surface close to. Few designs manage both, as the comparison test of long range bullets @dodgyknees posted a few weeks ago. In that test the bullet that worked best below 300 was the copper mono metal...and it performed so much better at that range than the lead core bullets in the test, half of which scored less overall despite their performing better at 600 yards.
Much is dependent on the shooter's choice of appropriate bullet for the job...what is the advantage of using a bullet which "does its best work" below 2000fps if all your deer are at a range where the bullet is travelling at 2,800?
If you include the other advantages of lead free into the equation with their ability to deliver cleaner kills at the majority of normal UK stalking distances the "parity" with lead core bullets is well established.
Alan
As the Neilson bullets are of a fragmenting design rather than controlled expansion are they actually legal in Scotland for deer?
Surely not... wouldn’t that interpretation rule out any bullet that shed metal...all frangible / soft point / partition lead core bullets?
The Nielsen expansion is controlled by their velocity and the substance they are passing through prior to fragmenting so....
Alan
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Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I would agree with @Alantoo on this one, weight after impact is not written in the law, only before.
I would have to say fragmentation would fall under expanding ammunition as it hasn't remained at a (relatively) constant diameter throughout impact, if that is an issue for people then the peregrine bullets or similar may be a better avenue to pursue?
Ben
Can anyone please explain what Peregrine are trying to say with this claim, from their VLR4 blurb:
“Further, the VLR4 has Perfect expansion as well as excellent weight retention which is achieved with the patented plunger initiator design. Unlike lead-core bullets, this bullet may be used for “on the shoulder (instant knock-down) shots”, instead of the limited option of only behind the shoulder. On the shoulder, shots are possible due to the solid copper bullet construction and the air pocket dampening effect of the brass plunger during nose expansion as strong bone structures are encountered.”
“Further, the VLR4 has Perfect expansion as well as excellent weight retention which is achieved with the patented plunger initiator design. Unlike lead-core bullets, this bullet may be used for “on the shoulder (instant knock-down) shots”, instead of the limited option of only behind the shoulder. On the shoulder, shots are possible due to the solid copper bullet construction and the air pocket dampening effect of the brass plunger during nose expansion as strong bone structures are encountered.”
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