Copper bullets - the limitations

[berg]

I have been using Barnes ttsx for many years in. 308 and 7mm08 and never had a problem with them killing deer, with distance over 300 metres interestingly some of the bigger stags i have shot i have recovered the bullet and they have expanded perfectly, i know alot of people now using cooper with out problems probably because they are responsible and respective of their quarry and shoot within ranges that are ethical and humane

 

[Sharpie]

I have attached a video from a few years ago, it's in Afrikaans, however the interesting feature is more the model showcased on the table to the right hand side, as far as my untrained eye can see we have a hollow point plugged by their brass tip, similar to how the Barnes TTSX has the cavity covered by the polymer tip. I would therefore say as there is an air pocket, that would make it legal as there is some form of hollow cavity to allow it to expand (I personally would say that categorised the same as a hollowpoint), regardless of if the tip may help it expand, if you see what I mean?

In any case, I am not claiming to know the answer here, I doubt anyone will dig that deep into the law as to say you aren't using a legal bullet as it is designed to expand reliably and consistently, if anyone legally trained wishes to pitch in with regards to this then I would be interested to hear!
I just thought it may be of interest for you to see a cross section of the peregrines as you mentioned?

Hope this is of interest,

Ben

Thank you for that.

I got about 1/4 of what the chap was saying, having a little German.

As I said, I was playing devil's advocate about the hollow point thing. I agree, it is basically a hollow point.

Looking at the model on the right, I see that it is more subtle than I thought. Seems to me that the initiator can either move back just a little to flare out the tip, or be rammed all the way home to mushroom it out. I suppose depending on impact velocity. Quite a neat idea, and I can't see a plastic tip being able to do that with precision. But what do I know ?

I was wrong about it having scoring to create petals, a-la Barnes et. al. Once it has got started it's going to open up, to whatever extent. Maybe to the magic diameter x2. But being copper rather than lead, hold itself together more certainly. And maybe keep going roughly straight, rather than sometimes doing weird unpredictable things.

On that point, it seems obvious to me that say a 6mm bullet, e.g .243, expanded x2 makes a hole of area 113 mm^2, whereas a 7.82mm (30 cal.) makes a hole of area 192 mm^2. Nearly twice as big. Yes, I know, there is far more to it than that, but something to consider if wanting a decent exit hole to spill out blood for following, or tracking with a dog, if you don't get an instant bang-flop.

As you said, a few years ago, so I expect the latest offerings are more developed by now.

Clever stuff.

 

[Muntybuck5803]

Having been putting together my reloading setup for a while and reading what is the minefield of lead free, this thread has definitely been one of the most informative and objective discussions I’ve found.
Every day is a school day.
Cheers dudes

 

[Sharpie]

but 1 thing make sure your barrel is clean before you shoot the copper, if you don’t it won’t group.

don’t know why it just doesn’t.

so clean barrel better accuracy and once on the copper I cleaned every 50/100 rounds or sometimes 200 or 500 devoid I could be bothered, you know once the accuracy is over 1 inch time for a clean.

Possibly its because jacketed lead use gilding metal/tombac jackets. Basically brass, a copper-zinc alloy. Whereas copper is just copper AFAIK. I observe that GSC treat their bullets to a secret-squirrel process. In their words:

"all our bullets come standard with a double coated process. The bullets are washed and then chemically oxidised to a depth of 2 to three micron. This oxide coating is softer than the base copper and also more "porous" for want of a better word. We then apply a chemical coating that bonds to the base layer. There are several different types of chemicals and you can rest assured we use the correct one for the application. If you couple this coating with our HV concept bullets (the original small arms drive band bullet), the result on barrel life is outstanding, despite the extreme velocities we go to."

Powder manufacturers are onto this, with their "copper fouling eliminator" formulations that claim to eat the copper away as it builds up. Possibly eating the barrels away too (I think Laurie has mentioned that possibility).

RWS nickel plate theirs. And observe their plastic tip. Not dissimilar to the Peregrine (patented ?) thing but also having a "Twin Compression Tip". Being from RWS I expect that their development process was quite thorough. Also appears from the photos to be scored inside to encourage petal formation. But still I see the hands of the marketing people at work. It has an "Active Crater Cavity" no less. Shocking. As well as "Performance Grooves" How could anyone resist ?

Amusingly that page is classified as "infotainment"

1. RWS: THE AMMUNITION COUNTS
2. INFOTAINMENT
3. BULLETS
4. HIT

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

but 1 thing make sure your barrel is clean before you shoot the copper, if you don’t it won’t group.
don’t know why it just doesn’t.
.

Nobody told my rusty old tikka about that
I shoot lead at targets and copper at fleshy things and don’t clean between (or as often as I should!) without issue
That using brass and copper

The cup and core bullet is only engaging a building metal cup in your rifling which is essentially the same material as many monolithics

I agree that historical models of monolithic non lead bullet suffered from fouling issues and regular cleaning was paramount but the current breed of lower pressure lower friction bullets

 

[Sharpie]

Next question, what is the best most sexy cleaning potion designed to get nickel out of your barrel ? Answers on the back of a postcard please.

Will my Butches Boreshine still do it ? As for Ballistol snake oil ...

 

[takbok]

I think that the RWS HIT is a tarted up Barnes TTSX with a different plastic tip - it's looks identical to the Barnes bullets.

 

[JockStalk]

So from actual use across a range of lead free bullets, what is working well on deer inside 300m?

 

[Sharpie]

So from actual use across a range of lead free bullets, what is working well on deer inside 300m?

Maybe ask FCS, given your location. They ought to know. And from what I hear have moved up from 270 to 308. As to where they now get their none-lead cartridges from, I would not hazard a guess, but it will be a big contract. And with these things, the lowest bidder often gets it, irrespective of whether it is the best. Also I would expect that they don't have a single source of supply. Chicken, eggs, one basket.

Maybe an anonymous FCS employee or contractor could comment here as to what the issue stuff is, nowadays.

 

[Sharpie]

I think that the RWS HIT is a tarted up Barnes TTSX with a different plastic tip - it's looks identical to the Barnes bullets.

I would not disagree. But it is German made, in Fürth-Stadeln, so indubitably superior to those Yankee things that have been doing the business for many many years ...

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

So from actual use across a range of lead free bullets, what is working well on deer inside 300m?

Barnes ttsx, lapua naturalis, fox Hunter

I’ve shot 1000’s of Barnes and really are my favourite, but if lapua did the naturalis In 270 I would choose that it’s a mega bullet.

 

[CarlW]

Barnes ttsx, lapua naturalis, fox Hunter

I’ve shot 1000’s of Barnes and really are my favourite, but if lapua did the naturalis In 270 I would choose that it’s a mega bullet.

What is it about the Naturalis that you like, Lee?

I see they say a 170gn .308 bullet will still expand properly down to c1600 fps. Is that also your experience?

They don't seem to do a lighter bullet, interestingly, so perhaps they have confidence their product doesn't need velocity?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

What is it about the Naturalis that you like, Lee?

I see they say a 170gn .308 bullet will still expand properly down to c1600 fps. Is that also your experience?

They don't seem to do a lighter bullet, interestingly, so perhaps they have confidence their product doesn't need velocity?

I couldn’t give a rats arse is they expand at 1600fps I shot 86 animals from a batch of 100 home loads and they all rolled over lovely admittedly 30-06 at sensible ranges up to 200-250 with a sensible speed, I never load hot loads

I load bullets to kill deer in a factory rifle that has constantly shot bug hole groups with what ever I feed it.

ok my experience does not follow the science and all that Horlicks!

worry less about what happens over 350-400 yard and load them up and kill the bloody things.

 

[Bowland blades]

Hi Nigel, My main interest at the moment is the development of a 100grain 243 bullet to meet the large deer criteria here in Scotland.
So far I've side by side tested the 100grn Peregrine against some initial development samples from Nielsen and some conventional Hornady soft points.
I'm now awaiting delivery of the next Nielsen samples so I can do more tests.
Initial redults have shown the bullets to be easy to load, they fly dead straight and group fine with no stability issues when shot through my 1_8 twist 243. They don't exhibit pressure signs even when driven at 3150ft/sec.
Next tests will include shooting through slower twist barrels and on deer.
Ian

1-8 twist is not your common or garden 243 win which only stuggles because of its one twist suits all build . Start building 1-8 twist 243 and imo its market is bust

 

[Yorric]

1-8 twist is not your common or garden 243 win which only stuggles because of its one twist suits all build . Start building 1-8 twist 243 and imo its market is bust

Sorry Bowland, I don't understand what you mean,,,, please translate and explain.

Ian

 

[CarlW]

What is it about the Naturalis that you like, Lee?

I see they say a 170gn .308 bullet will still expand properly down to c1600 fps. Is that also your experience?

They don't seem to do a lighter bullet, interestingly, so perhaps they have confidence their product doesn't need velocity?

Understood. You say you would choose it over the Barnes if Lapua offered a .270. What is it that you prefer over, for example, the Barnes?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Understood. You say you would choose it over the Barnes if Lapua offered a .270. What is it that you prefer over, for example, the Barnes?

In the 30-06 they were proper dead is dead, 3-10 steps and over they go, what was from muntjac to big lowland hind!

I like the rounded nose shape with the green plastic tip good expansion on what ever i shot with it!

meat damage was NiL, nothing, nada I got into a small group and shot a lowland hind around 80-90kg larder weight at 25 yards, 10 steps and over it went, when I butchered it less than 1lb of waste blooded trim and I put that down to me not sticking it straight away as I shot the other 2 that were with it as well.

the only 2 downers were it was a bastard to get hold of and a little too heavy!

if they did 140gn in 30cal spot on for a longer shot, 170gn little loopy on the long shot!

140gn in 270 would be lovely, but that will never happen as the old 270 is now classed obsolete

just got wind of some 110gn ttsx I’ll Chuck the idea of the peregrine out the window and stick to what I know works!

 

[CarlW]

In the 30-06 they were proper dead is dead, 3-10 steps and over they go, what was from muntjac to big lowland hind!

I like the rounded nose shape with the green plastic tip good expansion on what ever i shot with it!

meat damage was NiL, nothing, nada I got into a small group and shot a lowland hind around 80-90kg larder weight at 25 yards, 10 steps and over it went, when I butchered it less than 1lb of waste blooded trim and I put that down to me not sticking it straight away as I shot the other 2 that were with it as well.

the only 2 downers were it was a bastard to get hold of and a little too heavy!

if they did 140gn in 30cal spot on for a longer shot, 170gn little loopy on the long shot!

140gn in 270 would be lovely, but that will never happen as the old 270 is now classed obsolete

just got wind of some 110gn ttsx I’ll Chuck the idea of the peregrine out the window and stick to what I know works!

So, no runners and very little meat damage for the Lapua. Were you getting more runners and/or damage with the Barnes?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

So, no runners and very little meat damage for the Lapua. Were you getting more runners and/or damage with the Barnes?

No not really, lost 3 animals with the tsx non tipped, went onto ttsx problem solved never looked back.

sold the 30-06 kept the 270 and carried on with the Barnes!

I’ve shot all 6 species with the Barnes 130gn ttsx at 2900fps ish and they’ve all been dead and accounted for, not 1 lost animal.

meat damage same as the lapua, just easier to get hold of.

 

[CarlW]

No not really, lost 3 animals with the tsx non tipped, went onto ttsx problem solved never looked back.

sold the 30-06 kept the 270 and carried on with the Barnes!

I’ve shot all 6 species with the Barnes 130gn ttsx at 2900fps ish and they’ve all been dead and accounted for, not 1 lost animal.

meat damage same as the lapua, just easier to get hold of.

OK. Got you. Thanks, Lee.