Halleluja
UK REACH lead ammunition review announced
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Therefore what is your point? What would you vote (assuming 'no-change' is off the table)? An absolute ban or a ban with exceptions? I'd take the latter, personally.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Norma ECO Speed-22
Norma ECO Speed-22 is a Premium Lead-Free Rimfire cartridge for Hunting
www.norma-ammunition.com
I would highlight that there are alternatives being developed and with this news more companies will be looking for a way to address gaps like the .22 LR where there is less alternative option than in other cases. This is one of the reasons why a several year transition was proposed so as to allow for companies to develop the options for us to use.
In respect to it being more humane, I would again question that as I have done previously, in the deer I have seen shot and shot myself with non-lead ammunition I can conclude that while using homeloaded Barnes TTSX I and others see better results than with their lead counterparts. Hence why we choose to use these bullets rather than the lead options which are still available to use currently. I still have a box of SSTs loaded which I use for practice in my .308 which I could use instead of my TTSX at any given moment, however IMHO the non-lead load I have work better.
When something drops on the spot 9/10 times and is dead instantly there not many ways to get much more humane than that?
Ben
Like you a ban with exceptions if possible.
Norma ECO Speed-22
Norma ECO Speed-22 is a Premium Lead-Free Rimfire cartridge for Hunting
Ben
The reason the .22lr has been so successful in use for hunting is almost entirely due to its performance when subsonic the Norma offering is far from subsonic.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
This is why it is all the more important to been seen to be addressing the problem proactively, or we may end up in the same boat as the EU.
If we as a community were seen to remove use from game, we give ourselves a viable chance at being able to still use it for target shooting, angling as you point out as well as many other individual circumstances.
Hence we are looking for a ban with exceptions as a contrast to complete ban, there will be some sort of ban I don't doubt, why don't we make it on terms which work for us, and don't cause issues with these specific cases?
I agree, all i was trying to demonstrate is that there are alternatives being developed. With such large portions of the globe needing these alternatives, it is just a matter of time before companies produce subsonic non-lead .22
This again is why the several year transition is important so as to allow companies time to get these products to reach the market.
Ben
I'd agree, the main 2 things I consider the LR has over either the 22 WMR or 17 HMR are cost and noise.
All the currently offered non-lead versions are supersonic, so losing one of the main benefits.
That said, I've just googled that Norma stuff and it is cheaper than expected. More expensive than normal but still giving a saving over the magnums.
All said and done though, if lead is banned for the LR, I think I will take advantage of mine being a switch barrel and set it up as a WMR.
.22LR, Good luck with that, the periodic table is full.
Lead has exactly the physical and mechanical properties that has made its use in ammunition such a success.
Norma ECO Speed-22
Norma ECO Speed-22 is a Premium Lead-Free Rimfire cartridge for Hunting
I would highlight that there are alternatives being developed and with this news more companies will be looking for a way to address gaps like the .22 LR where there is less alternative option than in other cases. This is one of the reasons why a several year transition was proposed so as to allow for companies to develop the options for us to use.
In respect to it being more humane, I would again question that as I have done previously, in the deer I have seen shot and shot myself with non-lead ammunition I can conclude that while using homeloaded Barnes TTSX I and others see better results than with their lead counterparts. Hence why we choose to use these bullets rather than the lead options which are still available to use currently. I still have a box of SSTs loaded which I use for practice in my .308 which I could use instead of my TTSX at any given moment, however IMHO the non-lead load I have work better.
When something drops on the spot 9/10 times and is dead instantly there not many ways to get much more humane than that?
Ben
Some of us don’t like throwing deer bullets around at night. And what about vermin, do you shoot them with a .308 TTSX?
As for the .22 link you posted it’s states ‘up to 58% more velocity than standard ammunition’ I guess you missed the word subsonic in my post.
As I say you have a very limited pool of experience to draw down on so stop posting as if you know it all, because you don’t.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
It’s going to be the same, or you stop exporting game into the EU.
You’ve still got the Habitats and Birds directives too.
There is a proposal to permit use of lead under tight control if not using it will handicap international competition.
So maybe some exemptions for long range rifle and .22 competitors ?
But where will you practice? The twonks are going to make it virtually impossible to shoot lead on an outdoor range.
I don’t really care about lead for range use, terminal performance doesn’t make any difference in a sand butt so I’d happily shoot copper all day long.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
There’s very few places outside of the U.K. or on a range where subsonic.22 is in demand, high vel rocks just about everywhere else
There’s always Au is suppose, pretty close to lead, though not quite as soft
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
That really would be the "golden shot". LOL!
Maybe we are looking at this in the wrong way. There is nothing naturally occurring that can substitute lead without receiving a good dose of radiation or additional toxicity. I read about a company called ecomass that produces high density composites as a substitute for lead and other toxic materials. Don’t ask me the details I don’t know I’m not a chemist but maybe the future of lead free might be looking in this direction.
Woodenbeam
Well-Known Member
Well I think it’s a load of cock and as opposed to all this shite of self reform we should be sticking two fingers up & putting forward some of our own expert opinions. Yes lead is toxic but so is breathing in the middle of most towns/cities - can you tell this he wrangled me
If game dealers wish to promote lead free then good on them but to restrict the majority of field sports be it air rifle, vermin control, pest control, shooting game on the wing or deer stalking for an opinion voiced loudly and often usually in the telegraph (quote from today below) is ball cocks. If you say something often enough people will believe it.
“Lead can cause great harm to wildlife, people and the environment, and research by the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust shows that between 50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl die in the UK each year due ingesting lead from used pellets.
Despite being highly toxic, wildfowl often mistake the pellets for food. A further 200,000 to 400,000 birds suffer welfare or health impacts, and animals that predate on wildfowl can also suffer.”
Where the hell is all this death and devastation cause I’ll be damned if I’ve witnessed any of it - I’m of the firm belief this is a over exaggerated and hypothetical pile of cock
If game dealers wish to promote lead free then good on them but to restrict the majority of field sports be it air rifle, vermin control, pest control, shooting game on the wing or deer stalking for an opinion voiced loudly and often usually in the telegraph (quote from today below) is ball cocks. If you say something often enough people will believe it.
“Lead can cause great harm to wildlife, people and the environment, and research by the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust shows that between 50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl die in the UK each year due ingesting lead from used pellets.
Despite being highly toxic, wildfowl often mistake the pellets for food. A further 200,000 to 400,000 birds suffer welfare or health impacts, and animals that predate on wildfowl can also suffer.”
Where the hell is all this death and devastation cause I’ll be damned if I’ve witnessed any of it - I’m of the firm belief this is a over exaggerated and hypothetical pile of cock
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
As I have previously stated, the linked ammunition was there to serve as an example of where a manufacturer has developed a non-lead .22 LR round, my point being given time more will develop, allowing greater choice as to what suits your needs.
You seem to have got the impression I am necessarily referring to vermin with that post, I was actually referring to deer, which hopefully are not being shot at night by most on here?
You can get TTSX in calibres down to .22 cal or in the Varmint grenade .20, so the .308 was merely an example based off what I have laying around to emphasise my point.
I would also just like to point out I have never said I know the solution or that my opinion was worth any more than anyone else's on here, I am sharing my viewpoint, as is the point of a forum, if you feel I don't know what I am on about then that equally is your opinion and one you are entitled to, feel free to disregard my posts?
I am no chemist nor bullet designer, but could bismuth or as @gr1ffer states some sort of composite material equally designed to mimic lead's properties be a potential solution.
These are the sort of things which over the space of a couple of years I'm sure the correct people within ammunition companies can explore for the likes of .22LR, hence my point that manufacturers are looking at non-lead .22LR options.
Ben
CarlW
Well-Known Member
It doesn't need to be the same at all in order to meet export standards. The exported meat might be required to but that is easily dealt with.
Were you not responding to my post reference shooting vermin?
non lead subsonic will not work in any current factory .22. Ttsx are a hunting bullet not a Varmint bullet. As I say get a bit more real world experience rather than thinking you know better than folk who’ve been shooting animals with lead projectiles longer than you have been alive.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Maybe, but it looks like 2 separate production lines would be required with verifiable separation from source. Then there’s the estates, for them it’s either or, no mixed use or there’s a risk of cross contamination.
I really don’t see it as an option for anyone planning to sell into the food chain.
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