UK REACH lead ammunition review announced

[BryanDC]

For a you g man you seem to have done an awful lot. Now, how many have you wounded and how many lost with either copper or lead. I have used tin in a ,30 cal and it is an effective substitute but rest sssured after a few thousand animals, there is no substitute for lead, unless it's for dangerous game. For the two legged variety of them I would still prefer lead.

FFS That's the third person to have a go at Ben's age. It's obviously a problem for some people that youngsters want to get involved in fieldsports and have a mind of their own.

 

[CarlW]

FFS That's the third person to have a go at Ben's age. It's obviously a problem for some people that youngsters want to get involved in fieldsports and have a mind of their own.

It's the tone of his posts. They are embarrassing. There's plenty of good youngsters on here who participate well. Look at T.eddie, for instance. However, what those guys don't do (and Ben does, unfortunately) is act like a weary old hack with a lifetime of deer under their belt.

 

[BryanDC]

I have to admit that, although this ban appalls me, I rarely shoot a shotgun beyond 30 metres. For 12-bore, I would probably be fine.

However, I like to shoot with my .410 and my 28-bore when I go for a wander about at home. I will literally shoot one or two rabbits, pigeon (when appropriate ref. GL), or pheasant for the pot. That's it. Why the government should intrude on that, I fail to understand. Well, that's not true: they are intruding on it because fund-managers, PE guys, and bankers are blatting the sh1t out of the countryside every weekend, under BASC's protection.

I understand your frustration Carl and I also understand the comments about the big game shoots and personally have no desire to take part in them. The problem is there can't be one rule for them and another for you. It would be unworkable. Unless there was an exemption for small calibres as they have proposed for rimfire here.

 

[Scotty99]

No one these days would argue the case for leaded petrol. It’s the way of the world and we will have to adapt or be left behind.

 

[CarlW]

I understand your frustration Carl and I also understand the comments about the big game shoots and personally have no desire to take part in them. The problem is there can't be one rule for them and another for you. It would be unworkable. Unless there was an exemption for small calibres as they have proposed for rimfire here.

I'm no longer arguing my case, Bryan. We have lost. I have accepted that. If BASC can salvage anything from their mess, then I'll be grateful for what I am given.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Okay, I am going to put this quite clearly, you may not agree, but these are my findings and are echoed by others using similar combinations of bullet and velocity:

The deer I have shot with copper at a variety of ranges 90% of them dropped on the spot, the others made it a maximum of 20 yards. They were heart shots that ran, and most heart shots do go bang flop.
In my experience with lead (mainly SSTs which people seem to rate highly), I probably got about 40-50% that ran 20 yards or more. They were not as effective from my experience, all these shots were with good hits inside a 'kill zone'.
I understand the point about a follow-up shot should a deer run and need another, however with the copper working well and myself having good accuracy from a variety of positions, I have never had a situation where I needed to take that sort of shot as my shots have been through an appropriate 'kill zone' and the bullets have done more than enough damage to drop the deer quickly, if not instantly. Follow-up shots should not be the sole reason for using one particular bullet, because if they are a regularity, you either need to question if you're shooting beyond your ability, or if the bullet is performing correctly. Equally you would have to question how far is the deer realistically going to run before running out of steam if it has been hit well, even if your shot is at 250m you do still have another 200m of range with certain combinations of copper (maybe further with others) I would expect to be able to get back on a deer and for it to slow to the point of being able to take a shot within that?

I agree that you lose velocity quicker using a light bullet, however all I am interested in is the ballistic chart - what range can I go out to, while maintaining at least 2200 FPS, which is where I believe the limit to for the TTSX, you may get away with slightly slower, but that is where I am comfortable to in .30 cal. By my charts produced on Applied Ballistics, trued with chrono data, I came up with the ranges stated in my previous post for my rifles.

Now while you may question the amount I have shot, the sample sizes for all my conclusions are large enough that I myself am very satisfied to draw my conclusion from them. I would not use non-lead if I did not believe myself that it wasn't the best tool for the task, on none of my stalking patches have I been forced to use non-lead, I do so by my own free will.

Ben

I have shot thousands, make that tens of thousands of animals. With everything from an airgun to a centre fire. That’s over forty years. There’s no available product that replaces lead for much of that shooting.
While you might think that limiting your range is enough, and if you have that self control I commend you. However that doesn’t change the fact that if you feel the need to restrict your range then you are not using the most effective tool for the job. As for how far they run when well hit, that’s not the question. How far could they run if poorly hit, and what are you going to do if the only chance you get is four hundred yards away before it disappears for good?
So far I don’t see a satisfactory answer to those questions

If you want to use copper and think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, fine. But don’t p*as on me and try tell me it’s raining.
I would be far more worried as a member of the general public by the lead pipe still providing drinking water. Along with a myriad of other things that should be dealt with. That are a bigger threat to a greater number of people.

I like many others am still waiting to see all the dead wildfowl we were told about when they banned lead over wetlands.

Like many things with regard to firearms I think that the problem is exaggerated. But it is an easy win that the wider public will believe makes them safer. High capacity shotguns and pistols are two things that made good headlines for the politicians. But made little if any real difference to the amount of illegal firearms out there.
This is the same, everyone knows lead is poisonous. So it is easy to say look we’ve banned it you’re safe now. Cracking headlines, but in reality if it was that bad all those who eat shot game would be dropping like flies. I don’t know about you but I know a lot of people who have eaten game all their lives, in many cases over the government advised weekly amounts. Should they not all be dying young?

 

[25 Sharps]

Not really.

I shoot a Mossberg 600 I got for £50.

Jocker do a paper wad steel cartridge that performs just fine through that.

I’ll take your point if you can link 3 adverts for steel proofed guns at £100 or under, if not you’ll just prove my point

 

[25 Sharps]

No one these days would argue the case for leaded petrol. It’s the way of the world and we will have to adapt or be left behind.

Replaced with Benzene which is .................
Carcinogenic

 

[Acm]

It's the tone of his posts. They are embarrassing. There's plenty of good youngsters on here who participate well. Look at T.eddie, for instance. However, what those guys don't do (and Ben does, unfortunately) is act like a weary old hack with a lifetime of deer under their belt.

What qualifies as a "youngster" in these parts, just out if interest?!
Ive been lambing the last 6 weeks and got through a serious amount of podcasts in the wee small hours in the lambing and calving sheds and this lead free movement has got serious legs across the pond too. What is interesting is that a lot of the podcast hosts actually haven't done much hunting at all, one which i really enjoy has actually shot less in his lifetime than a single big cull morning on fallow would achieve here!
One things for sure, if America goes lead free over the next couple of generations of hunters the rest of the world will follow. I was listening to a lead free initiative in an area of Utah that achieved 92% participation in one year. Impressive/Sad depending on your views.

 

[25 Sharps]

Okay, I am going to put this quite clearly, you may not agree, but these are my findings and are echoed by others using similar combinations of bullet and velocity:

The deer I have shot with copper at a variety of ranges 90% of them dropped on the spot, the others made it a maximum of 20 yards. They were heart shots that ran, and most heart shots do go bang flop.
In my experience with lead (mainly SSTs which people seem to rate highly), I probably got about 40-50% that ran 20 yards or more. They were not as effective from my experience, all these shots were with good hits inside a 'kill zone'.
I understand the point about a follow-up shot should a deer run and need another, however with the copper working well and myself having good accuracy from a variety of positions, I have never had a situation where I needed to take that sort of shot as my shots have been through an appropriate 'kill zone' and the bullets have done more than enough damage to drop the deer quickly, if not instantly. Follow-up shots should not be the sole reason for using one particular bullet, because if they are a regularity, you either need to question if you're shooting beyond your ability, or if the bullet is performing correctly. Equally you would have to question how far is the deer realistically going to run before running out of steam if it has been hit well, even if your shot is at 250m you do still have another 200m of range with certain combinations of copper (maybe further with others) I would expect to be able to get back on a deer and for it to slow to the point of being able to take a shot within that?

I agree that you lose velocity quicker using a light bullet, however all I am interested in is the ballistic chart - what range can I go out to, while maintaining at least 2200 FPS, which is where I believe the limit to for the TTSX, you may get away with slightly slower, but that is where I am comfortable to in .30 cal. By my charts produced on Applied Ballistics, trued with chrono data, I came up with the ranges stated in my previous post for my rifles.

Now while you may question the amount I have shot, the sample sizes for all my conclusions are large enough that I myself am very satisfied to draw my conclusion from them. I would not use non-lead if I did not believe myself that it wasn't the best tool for the task, on none of my stalking patches have I been forced to use non-lead, I do so by my own free will.

Ben

Again Ben, you are showing your lack of experience, you are asking how far an animal will run when shot well. A follow up isn’t generally required when a deer is shot well it’s when the shot has gone wrong. The deer has moved, the wind gusted, you flinched shoot enough animals and something will go wrong at some point.

I note you have avoided the question of how many deer you have shot!

In answer to your question by PM, when I discounted barnes Varmint grenade and went back to v-max it was after around 120 rounds on quarry. So, how many deer have you shot?

 

[BryanDC]

What qualifies as a "youngster" in these parts, just out if interest?!

I sometimes think it's anyone under 60 on here

 

[25 Sharps]

I think pretty much all of us are agreed that lead is done for and that the transition will be fairly swift, whether the ban is justified or not ( and I actually think it is ) doesn’t matter. Personally I have a fair bit of old fashioned lead in stock for both rifle and shotgun but as I use it I’m replacing it with non toxic, I figure I‘ll have to effectively throw a fair bit of the lead away at the range as soon as the game dealers stop accepting it, which is going to be expensive, but I’ll get over it.
I think the transition will be pretty fast once current lead stocks are exhausted.

Where on earth do you get the idea that we all agree ?

 

[StephenToast]

I’ll take your point if you can link 3 adverts for steel proofed guns at £100 or under, if not you’ll just prove my point

More effort than I am willing to put in I'm afraid.

My Mossberg is one. There are more out there.

 

[Selous]

I have shot thousands, make that tens of thousands of animals. With everything from an airgun to a centre fire. That’s over forty years. There’s no available product that replaces lead for much of that shooting.
While you might think that limiting your range is enough, and if you have that self control I commend you. However that doesn’t change the fact that if you feel the need to restrict your range then you are not using the most effective tool for the job. As for how far they run when well hit, that’s not the question. How far could they run if poorly hit, and what are you going to do if the only chance you get is four hundred yards away before it disappears for good?
So far I don’t see a satisfactory answer to those questions

If you want to use copper and think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, fine. But don’t p*as on me and try tell me it’s raining.
I would be far more worried as a member of the general public by the lead pipe still providing drinking water. Along with a myriad of other things that should be dealt with. That are a bigger threat to a greater number of people.

I like many others am still waiting to see all the dead wildfowl we were told about when they banned lead over wetlands.

Like many things with regard to firearms I think that the problem is exaggerated. But it is an easy win that the wider public will believe makes them safer. High capacity shotguns and pistols are two things that made good headlines for the politicians. But made little if any real difference to the amount of illegal firearms out there.
This is the same, everyone knows lead is poisonous. So it is easy to say look we’ve banned it you’re safe now. Cracking headlines, but in reality if it was that bad all those who eat shot game would be dropping like flies. I don’t know about you but I know a lot of people who have eaten game all their lives, in many cases over the government advised weekly amounts. Should they not all be dying young?

Regarding your comments on range, I don’t have to limit my range, the non lead bullets I use are good to 350 to 400 yards and I don’t need to shoot further than that. With lead bullets I still wouldn’t shoot any further and have never had the need to do so in 30 plus years of stalking. Let’s face it the lead bullets also suffer from a loss of performance at range so it’s more about using the correct bullet for the job rather than just being about the material the bullet core is made of

 

[25 Sharps]

More effort than I am willing to put in I'm afraid.

My Mossberg is one. There are more out there.

Your mossberg is a one off and you know you won’t find them so your point is entirely moot

 

[Dunwaters]

Where on earth do you get the idea that we all agree ?

I said “ pretty much all agree “ , but some of you guys will go to your deathbeds convinced that you’ve been hard done by.
A bit like all those French generals meeting up after Waterloo wondering how they lost and re fighting the battle.
It doesn’t matter how often they win over the dinner table, they lost when it counted.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

It's the tone of his posts. They are embarrassing. There's plenty of good youngsters on here who participate well. Look at T.eddie, for instance. However, what those guys don't do (and Ben does, unfortunately) is act like a weary old hack with a lifetime of deer under their belt.

The tone of a post is how you, the reader, choose to interpret them, this is one of the issues with a text based answer as a pose to say a voice message, where you can hear my tone?
Nothing is meant to come across as at all condescending nor any other way you may have interpreted them. I speak my mind and that is my opinion, unfortunately as is often the case people who disagree with my viewpoint are quick to point the finger at my age and say I have no experience.

As I have said to numerous people I am not claiming to know it all, however I am just presenting my findings. I am taking in what others are saying and I have learnt a lot from the debate, especially with regards to the science surrounding lead alternatives.

With regards to my experience, I have been accompanying people deer stalking regularly for 10+ years and have been doing the shooting element myself for about 5 years.

My intention was to provide a counter-argument to those saying it is a travesty that some form of lead ban would be on the horizon, it is very easy to see the 'I have used lead for decades and I will continue to' attitude in people amongst our community. I completely understand your point and at the moment where it is still legal to do that its no issue, it is your choice, my point being if we can get a partial ban, where its lead is banned for meat going into the food chain, those who continue to use lead despite that ban may push us into a complete ban. This would be in no ones interest and hence I am putting forward my opinion that copper is at least on par with lead within its effective range.

The advantage I have is that as I was introduced to the sport with both, I haven't the bias in my experience, what I currently use is what I believe to be the best, it is my personal choice.



Ben

 

[Liveonce]

We capitulated when basc etc, became part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
We just have to hope that we get a few crumbs from the table, for air guns, .22lr and clay pigeon shooting.

 

[kripton]

On a slightly different tack, if a deer is neck shot with a lead based bullet and the head/legs are removed on gralloching how is the game dealer to know that lead was used - is it worth stocking up the number of "possessed" rounds in lead (or even increasing that number on a variation)? - if home loading, can you not just load the number of rounds you are entitled to possess and keep any number of lead bullets ("heads" but don't start me on the correct description of "heads") ready to reload. - Not that I am ever suggesting you should misinform your game dealer of course !

 

[CarlW]

The tone of a post is how you, the reader, choose to interpret them, this is one of the issues with a text based answer as a pose to say a voice message, where you can hear my tone?
Nothing is meant to come across as at all condescending nor any other way you may have interpreted them. I speak my mind and that is my opinion, unfortunately as is often the case people who disagree with my viewpoint are quick to point the finger at my age and say I have no experience.

As I have said to numerous people I am not claiming to know it all, however I am just presenting my findings. I am taking in what others are saying and I have learnt a lot from the debate, especially with regards to the science surrounding lead alternatives.

With regards to my experience, I have been accompanying people deer stalking regularly for 10+ years and have been doing the shooting element myself for about 5 years.

My intention was to provide a counter-argument to those saying it is a travesty that some form of lead ban would be on the horizon, it is very easy to see the 'I have used lead for decades and I will continue to' attitude in people amongst our community. I completely understand your point and at the moment where it is still legal to do that its no issue, it is your choice, my point being if we can get a partial ban, where its lead is banned for meat going into the food chain, those who continue to use lead despite that ban may push us into a complete ban. This would be in no ones interest and hence I am putting forward my opinion that copper is at least on par with lead within its effective range.

The advantage I have is that as I was introduced to the sport with both, I haven't the bias in my experience, what I currently use is what I believe to be the best, it is my personal choice.



Ben

How many deer have you personally shot?