Bringing back detachable iron sights

[User00040]

In the 50's and 60's, Sako was leading the way in terms of sporter rifles. In fact, their L46 was so ahead of it's time (flush fitting single stack magazine) that their L461 wound that back a little by implementing a floorplate, which held 6 rounds! Giving a 6+1 capacity for the .222 and .222 Mag chamberings, soon to be followed by the mighty .223 Remington.

Among their early innovations was a detachable, windage adjustable scope mounting system, which paired with their integral tapered dovetails, offered a somewhat repeatable system which worked fine with the optics of the time ( 1 inch/25.4mm or 26mm tube sizes only).

A fantastic wee peep sight was also offered, mounting just over the rear receiver bridge and above the bolt handle. The off-centre drilled peep offered an adjustable 100 or 200 (yards? meters?) zero. The small aperture was recessed into the body to offer a shaded view and reduce glare on the later models.





Now, these are getting harder to find as I believe they stopped making them when the production of A-series actions was wound up.

Imagine my excitement to see this offering from New England Custom Gun: NECG Weaver Ghost Ring N-106G, Gift Ideas | New England Custom Gun Service, Ltd.

Different sizes of apertures are available so you can go from a true target peep to proper 'ghost ring' and make Jeff Cooper proud...





Basically the same concept, but for Picatinny rails. So, a greater range of mounting options on a more versatile platform. Ideal when paired with EGW's picatinny rails with a centre channel, which was developed with iron sights in mind!

Now, I just need to learn how to silver solder and mount my own front sights. Watch this space!

 

[Heym SR20]

In the 50's and 60's, Sako was leading the way in terms of sporter rifles. In fact, their L46 was so ahead of it's time (flush fitting single stack magazine) that their L461 wound that back a little by implementing a floorplate, which held 6 rounds! Giving a 6+1 capacity for the .222 and .222 Mag chamberings, soon to be followed by the mighty .223 Remington.

Among their early innovations was a detachable, windage adjustable scope mounting system, which paired with their integral tapered dovetails, offered a somewhat repeatable system which worked fine with the optics of the time ( 1 inch/25.4mm or 26mm tube sizes only).

A fantastic wee peep sight was also offered, mounting just over the rear receiver bridge and above the bolt handle. The off-centre drilled peep offered an adjustable 100 or 200 (yards? meters?) zero. The small aperture was recessed into the body to offer a shaded view and reduce glare on the later models.

View attachment 204539
View attachment 204540
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Now, these are getting harder to find as I believe they stopped making them when the production of A-series actions was wound up.

Imagine my excitement to see this offering from New England Custom Gun: NECG Weaver Ghost Ring N-106G, Gift Ideas | New England Custom Gun Service, Ltd.

Different sizes of apertures are available so you can go from a true target peep to proper 'ghost ring' and make Jeff Cooper proud...

View attachment 204542

View attachment 204543

Basically the same concept, but for Picatinny rails. So, a greater range of mounting options on a more versatile platform. Ideal when paired with EGW's picatinny rails with a centre channel, which was developed with iron sights in mind!

Now, I just need to learn how to silver solder and mount my own front sights. Watch this space!

Thanks for positing. Make your front sight part of a muzzle cap to screw onto the threads on the end of the barrel. Or rather than silver solder, many of the modern metal epoxies are just as strong.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

I’m very interested to see how this develops. I have looked at this NECG sight to give myself an aperture type rear sight for my Zastava M98 style rifle.

I have the advantage that my rifle already has iron sights, so I have a front sight base at the muzzle albeit I would need to change out the Patridge blade it has right now.

@caberslash what rifle are going to mount it on?

 

[enfieldspares]

Here's my 2p worth as the previous proud owner of not one, but two, Brno ZKK rifles with the standard front and mid-sights and the then also standard flip-up peepsight. Plus the correct Zeiss-Jena 4x 'scopes on dedicated correct mounts.

It doesn't work. Why?

Because unless you intend to use it for very very long range what really occurs in a flat shooting rifle (mine were both .270 WCF) the mid-sight fouls the line of sight from peep sight to front sight. On the ZKK the mid-sight was fixed upright not fold down.

So there may be some merit for "old timey" browning a herd of wildebeeste or gnu in Africa at 800 to 900 yards (and the peep sight set accordingly as on the cocking piece sight on Mauser 98 sporting rifles) but if the rifle has a mid-sight that is fixed upright and won't fold down it doesn't work.

 

[User00040]

Thanks for positing. Make your front sight part of a muzzle cap to screw onto the threads on the end of the barrel. Or rather than silver solder, many of the modern metal epoxies are just as strong.

I wouldn't trust the muzzle cap idea as I looked into it and didn't find it convincing.

There is another option of mounting a front sight to the moderator, as Aimsport shows here: ACCESSORIES



Shame I can't find anyone who actually lists it for sale!

Uncle Larry shows us the way once again...

 

[User00040]

Here's my 2p worth as the previous proud owner of not one, but two, Brno ZKK rifles with the standard front and mid-sights and the then also standard flip-up peepsight. Plus the correct Zeiss-Jena 4x 'scopes on dedicated correct mounts.

It doesn't work. Why?

Because unless you intend to use it for very very long range what really occurs in a flat shooting rifle (mine were both .270 WCF) the mid-sight fouls the line of sight from peep sight to front sight. On the ZKK the mid-sight was fixed upright not fold down.

So there may be some merit for "old timey" browning a herd of wildebeeste of gnu in Africa at 800 to 900 yards (and the peep sight set accordingly as on the cocking piece sight on Mauser 98 sporting rifles) but if the rifle has a mid-sight that is fixed upright and won't fold down it doesn't work.

Neither the Sako L461 nor the newer rifles in my inventory have a mid-mounted sight.

The picatinny rail has a 20 MOA incline to smooth things along too.

 

[User00040]

@caberslash what rifle are going to mount it on?

Depends how things pan out, plan is a Remington Model 7 in 7mm08 at the moment.

Part of the inspiration was the detachable irons of the M24's made by Remington for the US Army.

They used a British made RPA backsight for a while, as I noted here: RPA 'Trakker' Iron Sights

 

[harrygrey382]

Good photos, and nice little history lesson. Those Sako sights are cool as. The NECG (Recknagel?) are nice as well. Having them back as far as possible and as an aperture not an “open” sight is definitely preferably - it makes them a true 100m + sight IMO, unlike the barrel mounted style which are a novelty as far as I’m concerned.

I’d be removing a fixed blade barrel sight whatever my intended use is. If you want a scope it’s no use and if you want decent irons it’s still no use. Unless you feel your scope might fail, in which case the removable weaver mount option is good, so long as it’s genuinely repeatable (probably more repeatable than a barrel mounted open...). Or maybe different conditions I guess, in which case the NECG is a great option.

Can you get those NECG sights in sako mount? My only issue with them is you need a weaver mount, which isn’t a very elegant way of mounting what is otherwise a very nice sight. If they made one that screwed directly to the receiver I would’ve bought one for my open sighted 7x57 build, but I had to opt for an old steel Lyman 57 as there was nothing new I was happy with. There’s definitely a hole in the market for good quality direct receiver mount aperture sights I reckon

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Depends how things pan out, plan is a Remington Model 7 in 7mm08 at the moment.

Part of the inspiration was the detachable irons of the M24's made by Remington for the US Army.

They used a British made RPA backsight for a while, as I noted here: RPA 'Trakker' Iron Sights

I didn’t know that. I am (very) tangentially connected to RPA via my stepmother of all people.

@harrygrey382 AFAIK NECG make their own products such as the Weaver Mount ghost ring, and are importers and resellers of some European stuff like the Apel mounts and rings and maybe Recknagel too. I don’t think they do a ghost ring or aperture sight for SAKO, although I could be wrong. I think they do have options that fit the integral grooves of CZ and Ruger rifles. I would check their website but I am on my phone and it’s a PITA trying to navigate on a tiny screen!

Skinner sights are also excellent and available in a number of configurations to fit integral receiver grooves, although again I don’t think they cover SAKO….

 

[Sambarrmann]

I'm interested in the OP opinion that the Sako peep sights were so good. Peep sights indeed, they have more tunnel vision than the worst image-movement scope and have no useful application beyond target shooting that I can see.

While I agree with Enfieldspares on using peeps behind tangent sights, a small aperture can sharpen your picture of the 'bull', if nothing else.

 

[User00040]

Good photos, and nice little history lesson. Those Sako sights are cool as. The NECG (Recknagel?) are nice as well. Having them back as far as possible and as an aperture not an “open” sight is definitely preferably - it makes them a true 100m + sight IMO, unlike the barrel mounted style which are a novelty as far as I’m concerned.

Yep, quality piece deffo made by Recknagel for NECG but no luck in getting them direct from Ze Germans as it's not listed in their catalogue. Probably an exclusive item at the moment.

I’d be removing a fixed blade barrel sight whatever my intended use is. If you want a scope it’s no use and if you want decent irons it’s still no use. Unless you feel your scope might fail, in which case the removable weaver mount option is good, so long as it’s genuinely repeatable (probably more repeatable than a barrel mounted open...). Or maybe different conditions I guess, in which case the NECG is a great option.

Did look into removable globe front (muzzle end) sights for a bit, but was deterred as the only realistic options available were the solution featured on the US Army M24 built by Remington, which involved a front mounted dovetail rail (just visible at the end of the barrel in pic below)

With complimentary rear sight being mounted via a side plate which was drilled and tapped into the long-action Rem700 receiver, for a .308/7.62X51... I'm sure the Soviet/Russian designer Yevgeny Dragunov would have shaken his head in disbelief of such Capitalist dysfunctional-ism in design...

Anyway, the front globe sight bit looks pretty solid, it's quite big though and I suspect it would get caught in foliage so it spent most of it's time in the transit case.



The front (back,rear, receiver mounted? uh?!) sight looks even more ungainly, don't think these ever saw combat use. Ryan Cleckner, an Army Ranger who went to SOTIC (US Spec Ops Sniper School) in the early GWOT days said they started the class with 22 trainers, then went on to the M24 with irons, then scopes. Never used the irons again.



Originally Lynman supplied both front and rear sights to Remington, but these were new-old stock and once depleted, Remington started buying from RPA of Britain!

Back to my point, the detachable muzzle end iron sight was a cool idea, but to get the right height, you needed a dovetail block of the right height to match the barrel contour, as the actual globe sight is not adjustable for height, windage or elevation. Muzzleloader hunters in the US and Canada still use these quite a bit.

Can you get those NECG sights in sako mount? My only issue with them is you need a weaver mount, which isn’t a very elegant way of mounting what is otherwise a very nice sight. If they made one that screwed directly to the receiver I would’ve bought one for my open sighted 7x57 build, but I had to opt for an old steel Lyman 57 as there was nothing new I was happy with. There’s definitely a hole in the market for good quality direct receiver mount aperture sights I reckon

No mate, would be very cool if they did make them to fit a Sako Dovetail. I'd try writing to NECG to see what they say. Sako's probably have just as strong a following in the Southern Hemisphere as anywhere in the world. I'd phone a few small town gunshops or stick a wanted ad up on forums (how I got mine, on here!). Probably find an old Roo shooter who got one with his Sako .222 and let it live in a draw for 40 odd years...

This guy from NZ did a nice build, note that his sight is quite an old model (deffo not made when the action was, which is an A1 Sako)!

I didn’t know that. I am (very) tangentially connected to RPA via my stepmother of all people.

Funny, really small world as the RPA guy said he used to live on the road where my Mum has a house! (moving about a lot at the time and was looking at getting it sent there)

Did not buy anything from them in the end, as it was quite a lot of money for the wee globe sight and dovetail mount (like £200 odd!) and it was cheaper to buy from OK Weber in the States (sadly the old gentleman passed and whoever inherited the estate wanted everything sold fast). Did not buy anything in the end as I realised the M24 solution was sub-optimal for my needs.

I'm interested in the OP opinion that the Sako peep sights were so good. Peep sights indeed, they have more tunnel vision than the worst image-movement scope and have no useful application beyond target shooting that I can see.

While I agree with Enfieldspares on using peeps behind tangent sights, a small aperture can sharpen your picture of the 'bull', if nothing else.

I have pretty good eyesight (20/20 at last check, no problem with reading last line of the charts) but agree that I would not be using any form of iron sights for low-light/long distance shooting. I think a deer (especially Reds!) about 100-200m away in an open clearing would be a fine so long as their vital zone is visible. I'd be happy to shoot vermin out to the same distances with a nice and frangible lead-core bullet too. Just need to find a calm sunny day, which usually happen when no rifle is in hand!

I'd be quite keen to try some larger inserts in the Sako peep, but fear that dismantling or even drilling it would be blasphemy!

 

[Woodsmoke]

I really like this idea! I have a '65 Husky that I was considering using a Lyman on, but that fixes to the side of the action. So far, I've been unable to find anyone who can tell me what the screw spacings are on the sights, so I haven't yet bothered. This is the perfect solution though, as I can mount it directly to the scope mount! Excellent heads-up, many thanks!

 

[Nkawu]

Talley make a quick detachable peep sight that fits thier rear base. I have the scope on my Winchester M70 (30-06) in QD rings, I just need to fit an appropriate front sight and zero at 50m with 220 gn softs/solids and should be all sorted to hunt pigs or wildebeest in the thick bush.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Talley make a quick detachable peep sight that fits thier rear base. I have the scope on my Winchester M70 (30-06) in QD rings, I just need to fit an appropriate front sight and zero at 50m with 220 gn softs/solids and should be all sorted to hunt pigs or wildebeest in the thick bush.

And a beautiful piece of engineering it is too! Is your M70 completely without a front sight, or do you just need a blade more appropriate to the aperture sight?

 

[User00040]

Talley make a quick detachable peep sight that fits thier rear base. I have the scope on my Winchester M70 (30-06) in QD rings, I just need to fit an appropriate front sight and zero at 50m with 220 gn softs/solids and should be all sorted to hunt pigs or wildebeest in the thick bush.

Is it a 'pre-64' M70?

Asking the right questions!

 

[Nkawu]

And a beautiful piece of engineering it is too! Is your M70 completely without a front sight, or do you just need a blade more appropriate to the aperture sight?

I need a front sight from scratch. From what I've read it's not too difficult for a competent gunsmith to do.

Is it a 'pre-64' M70?

Asking the right questions!

Right questions indeed! It is the Winchester M70 'Classic' action which is essentially the pre-64 reintroduced after Winchester decided to stop making the push-feed action and go back to the Mauser action.

 

[scrumbag]

I'm currently thinking about putting iron sights back on a Brno / CZ .22 lr

Something like a Skinner Rear Peep:




And a Williams Ramp for the front:



Something worth thinging about - if you can get a front sight ramp that takes 3/8" dovetail front sight posts as they are the most ubiquitous.

Something I think I will do though is make sure the ramp sits a bit back from the muzzle threading shoulder as mods tend not to sit sharply flush with that line and might not fit quite straight.

Scrummy

 

[paul o']

Got a CZ f/sight some place off the old .222 .

 

[Fosbery Holster]

Perhaps something like this that fits on the wrist of the stock......there are various other types and styles that could be adapted.

This particular pop up peep sight is inletted into the wrist and fits underneath the top tang allowing the rear action screw to pass through the hole to secure both the sight and the action.

Westley Richards also used this particular sight way back on their .318.

 

[greenshoots]

'm currently thinking about putting iron sights back on a Brno / CZ .22 lr

you can get a replacement peep site blade for the cz barrel sight link below to one i have

JNP peep sight

Bought a CZ 452 FS that I absolutely love shooting, but the factory irons sights gave my 67 year old eyes trouble. I do not want a scope on this rifle...

www.24hourcampfire.com

greenshoots