Beavers - Rewilding

[Mungo]

Thank you for your very helpful reply to my simple question, luckily willie_gunn was more helpful.

Sorry - I was too busy trying to get a rise out of Red Dot.

Short answer to a complicated issue:

the balance of evidence indicates that yes, dams impede upstream movement, but clearly not to the extent that they drive migratories to extinction. Salmonids evolved in river systems with beavers present, and as we know, are very good at getting past obstacles. They wait for spates, or find gaps or whatever - exactly as they do with man made obstacles (weirs etc).

So there is some restriction of upstream movement. This appears to be compensated (or even more than compensated) by greater survival and faster growth of fry and parr above beaver dams. There are more insects to eat and more places to hide from predators. Beaver ponds are deeper than undammed streams, and stay cooler. They also act as buffers, keeping water levels more constant.

Net result of beavers? Not entirely clear, but neither the unmitigated disaster nor the ecological miracle that the two sides claim.

Salmon obviously evolved with beavers, and survived for millions of years in systems with beavers, entirely unaided by people. It seems unlikely that they will have much of an effect on salmon in modern systems - they’re a tiny side issue. Arguing about them really is rearranging the tuba players pocket hanky on the Titanic.

 

[old keeper]

I believe one of our American friends who clearly knows a lot more than we do about beavers said they didn't present a major threat to spawning salmon?

 

[devon deer stalker]

Amazing that salmon somehow made it through the millions of years before people got here…

It is amazing.

However, never in history has the migratory fish been under such a threat of total extinction in the UK.
Why reintroduce an already extinct mammal to the UK at the expense of migratory fish?
There just aren't the numbers these days as there were in your model of the previous 'millions of years'
It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Cheers
Richard
edit, composed whilst post 101 was being posted.

 

[Scandially]

Mungo....i could lose you in a phonebox.

 

[willie_gunn]

It is amazing.

However, never in history has the migratory fish been under such a threat of total extinction in the UK.
Why reintroduce an already extinct mammal to the UK at the expense of migratory fish?
There just aren't the numbers these days as there were in your model of the previous 'millions of years'
It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Cheers
Richard

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I personally think that beavers are the least of our salmon’s worries.

Picking a fight with beavers is merely tinkering around the edges of the problem.

Salmon farming, seals, commercial fishing, pollution - fixing these would have a huge impact on overall salmon numbers.

Beavers are a distraction by comparison.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I personally think that beavers are the least of our salmon’s problems.

Picking a fight with beavers is merely tinkering around the edges of the problem.

Salmon farming, seals, commercial fishing, fishing all of these would have a huge impact on overall salmon numbers.

Beavers are a distraction by comparison.

I am aware of that, totally, and other issues that you haven't listed, my point is why add to the existing threats to the migratory fish.

 

[willie_gunn]

I am aware of that, totally, and other issues that you haven't listed, my point is why add to the existing threats to the migratory fish.

Because the impact of beavers on salmon is complicated.

From reading the existing research there are clearly many benefits that the reintroduction of beavers could have on river ecology in general, which would also benefit the salmon population. Hard to say the same about the other things I listed.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo....i could lose you in a phonebox.

What’s one of them then?

 

[Mungo]

I am aware of that, totally, and other issues that you haven't listed, my point is why add to the existing threats to the migratory fish.

Because they may actually provide a benefit.

And there certainly isn’t any convincing evidence that they actually have a negative effect.

Even if half the keepers on the Spey still think they eat salmon…

 

[JTO]

Someone bought an old mill not far from me a few years ago. He got permission from the EA to install a water turbine to produce electricity(providing he installed a fish ladder) which he used to power heat extraction from underground. This meant that the gates were permenantly positioned to direct the river water through the turbine as if the mill was in operation. All the land drains in the meadows for nearly half a mile upstream are stopping working and the meadows are becoming marshy.

 

[dartmoordog]

So there is some restriction of upstream movement. This appears to be compensated (or even more than compensated) by greater survival and faster growth of fry and parr above beaver dams. There are more insects to eat and more places to hide from predators. Beaver ponds are deeper than undammed streams, and stay cooler. They also act as buffers, keeping water levels more constant.

Sorry - I was too busy trying to get a rise out of Red Dot.

Short answer to a complicated issue:

the balance of evidence indicates that yes, dams impede upstream movement, but clearly not to the extent that they drive migratories to extinction. Salmonids evolved in river systems with beavers present, and as we know, are very good at getting past obstacles. They wait for spates, or find gaps or whatever - exactly as they do with man made obstacles (weirs etc).

So there is some restriction of upstream movement. This appears to be compensated (or even more than compensated) by greater survival and faster growth of fry and parr above beaver dams. There are more insects to eat and more places to hide from predators. Beaver ponds are deeper than undammed streams, and stay cooler. They also act as buffers, keeping water levels more constant.

Net result of beavers? Not entirely clear, but neither the unmitigated disaster nor the ecological miracle that the two sides claim.

Salmon obviously evolved with beavers, and survived for millions of years in systems with beavers, entirely unaided by people. It seems unlikely that they will have much of an effect on salmon in modern systems - they’re a tiny side issue. Arguing about them really is rearranging the tuba players pocket hanky on the Titanic.

Thanks.

However slow moving water such as Beaver ponds are far from ideal juvenile Salmonid habitat, especially at the Fry, 1+, stage, where less vegetated, faster flowing riffle areas are what is needed. But I guess time will tell, however with far fewer fully quantitative juvenile fish surveys taking place these days, I guess we will never really know until it’s too late.

I am not going to say any different, but I don’t think the re introduction of Beaver is going to be of any benefit to our river catchments after centuries of mans influence……..It is a different world now, agreeably not a better one.

 

[captain jon]

I've eaten beaver.......it's nice

 

[User00036]

Apparently the Beavers extinction was caused by The Roman Catholic church in tudor times, they decreed that you could only eat fish on a friday, & declared that Beavers were in fact fish, so it proved back then that folks preferred meat to fish, I think that Barnacle geese were also fish. Beaver was also tastier than Barnacle Geese, otherwise we could have lost both. Personally I can't wait to give it a try, smoked with some of those wood chips, Yum Beaver & chips. Can we also release Killer Whales off the Norfolk coast, 27000 seals here that could do with a good clubbing.

 

[Heym SR20]

Have witnessed plenty of Salmon jumping up water falls I would be very surprised if a beaver dam would impeed progress of salmon.

And a more serious question are Eurasian and North American beavers the same species are and able to breed true. Ie like UK Red deer, big European Red, going through the Eurasian subspecies to the Chinese and Japanes Sika and then the American Elk are different races of the same species. Or are they distinct species that may hybridise but produce infertile offspring?

 

[steve sxs]

Because they may actually provide a benefit.

And there certainly isn’t any convincing evidence that they actually have a negative effect.

Even if half the keepers on the Spey still think they eat salmon…

Eat salmon, that's just to get a reaction, so as a have aready said nothing introduced or reintroduced into an eco system is not going to have an effect to some degree (mainly bad) if that species has been absent for some time

 

[alberta boy]

Sorry - I was too busy trying to get a rise out of Red Dot.

Short answer to a complicated issue:

the balance of evidence indicates that yes, dams impede upstream movement, but clearly not to the extent that they drive migratories to extinction. Salmonids evolved in river systems with beavers present, and as we know, are very good at getting past obstacles. They wait for spates, or find gaps or whatever - exactly as they do with man made obstacles (weirs etc).

So there is some restriction of upstream movement. This appears to be compensated (or even more than compensated) by greater survival and faster growth of fry and parr above beaver dams. There are more insects to eat and more places to hide from predators. Beaver ponds are deeper than undammed streams, and stay cooler. They also act as buffers, keeping water levels more constant.

Net result of beavers? Not entirely clear, but neither the unmitigated disaster nor the ecological miracle that the two sides claim.

Salmon obviously evolved with beavers, and survived for millions of years in systems with beavers, entirely unaided by people. It seems unlikely that they will have much of an effect on salmon in modern systems - they’re a tiny side issue. Arguing about them really is rearranging the tuba players pocket hanky on the Titanic.

I'm surprised that this is an issue . As I said earlier , our trout species don't have a problem getting around dams . They're not the Hoover Dam , there is always water running over the dam at some point . I have watched Rainbows going up and down overflows many times in the smaller streams of the Athabasca and Peace River drainage . I'm sure everyone here has seen footage of Spring and Coho Salmon fighting up the Frazier River in BC or jumping waterfalls in Alaska , a Beaver dam isn't much of an obstacle . At the risk of repeating myself , it's the damage that Beavers do in rural / farm country . They won't stay where the beaver advocates put them , they don't care what trees they drop ( by the way , they LOVE fruit trees ) , they'll plug up culverts , flood property , chew up or kill your dogs ( and have a go at you if they feel cornered ) and generally do what Beavers do . I know this sounds negative , but I actually enjoy having them around . Simply put , I don't think the UK is the place for Beavers anymore , there are far to many conflicting interests at play , and more importantly , you don't have much room for a species like the Beaver unless you're prepared to cull them . That would be the issue . You think you have problems with Badgers ? Wait till Chris Packam and his fellow travelers start with the cute and cuddly pics of Beaver kits snuggling up to their Mommy on the Beeb . Anthropomorphic Armageddon . Other than that , fill your boots lol .

AB

PS fun fact , the largest Beaver dam on Earth is in Northern Alberta , it's almost 800 yards across and can be seen from space ........... imagine that in a scenic valley in the Cotswalds .

 

[User00036]

Do beavers have any predators? or are they an Apex Beaver.

 

[alberta boy]

Do beavers have any predators? or are they an Apex Beaver.

Wolves , Wolverines , Black and Grizzly Bears , Fishers , Cougars and Coyotes . Great Grey and Horned Owls and Eagles will pick off a kit if they get they chance , as will Otters .............. and my Nephew .

AB

 

[countrryboy]

I think the problem with all these re-introduction ideas is its always some cute/fashionable species when that money could very easily be spent on many species already present really hanging on for survival (in scotland alone u could say capercallie, wildcat, red squirrel, grey partridge, even salmon and im sure plenty more i cant think off)

And the folk that shout the loudest for these reintroductions never live anywhere near the areas so it will never end up costing them money in the long term.
They also never seem to acknowledge any of the potential or actual negative affects, some seem to live in cloud cuckoo land

I dont actually think many folk would object to these type of reintro's if they knew going forward there would be some sort of management plan and some room to either control or move animals if they were a problem or numbers got to high and causing other damage.
This just releasing and leaving them to get on with it and keeping there full protection is just crazy, no one in there right minds would want them on there ground knowing there hands will always be tied.

Been a long time since i done my project on beaver reintros but the americain often carries a parisite which contaminates drinking water, beaver fever,
which the european 1 doesnt

 

[User00036]

Wolves , Wolverines , Black and Grizzly Bears , Fishers , Cougars and Coyotes . Great Grey and Horned Owls and Eagles will pick off a kit if they get they chance , as will Otters .............. and my Nephew .

AB

Great, we need to release some of them then otherwise we got Apex Beavers running around everywhere shredding everything in sight, or we could get a harness on them & use em as lawnmowers or pulp up our hedge trimmings. As for Beaver Fever, I had that, kept me in bed for weeks.