Q? on Conditions for large calibres in D&C 🤔

[TheCornishman]

A good Friend of mine is a very experienced shooter. He grew up in Africa. His late father was a particularly well known game guide. He himself ran safaris and even headed up an anti poaching unit in Tanzania working with the local community and government. Its fair to say that he knows his way around a rifle.

The other day I had the privilege of handling a couple of his guns whilst he was spring cleaning the cabinet. A beautiful Mauser actioned 300 win mag and a 458win mag… yes the big guns were out. These guns mean a great deal to my friend both handed down to him by his late father & uncle.

I was surprised to hear however that he has conditions on his FAC that restrict him from buying ammunition for these rifles unless he is leaving the country for a trip. I found this strange as I have heard of several other local shooters that own big bore centre fires and seemingly have no such conditions?

I understand that both calibers are pretty tasty. His 300win mag in particular though has always been his “Go too” rifle and I know he would love to be able to use it on fallow, red and occasional range days

We are under Devon & Cornwall licensing and I just wondered what experience others have had with this.

My surprise has got him wondering if he should look into trying to have these restrictions removed…I for one would love to hear that 458 bark

 

[Namman]

A good Friend of mine is a very experienced shooter. He grew up in Africa. His late father was a particularly well known game guide. He himself ran safaris and even headed up an anti poaching unit in Tanzania working with the local community and government. Its fair to say that he knows his way around a rifle.

The other day I had the privilege of handling a couple of his guns whilst he was spring cleaning the cabinet. A beautiful Mauser actioned 300 win mag and a 458win mag… yes the big guns were out. These guns mean a great deal to my friend both handed down to him by his late father & uncle.

I was surprised to hear however that he has conditions on his FAC that restrict him from buying ammunition for these rifles unless he is leaving the country for a trip. I found this strange as I have heard of several other local shooters that own big bore centre fires and seemingly have no such conditions?

I understand that both calibers are pretty tasty. His 300win mag in particular though has always been his “Go too” rifle and I know he would love to be able to use it on fallow, red and occasional range days

We are under Devon & Cornwall licensing and I just wondered what experience others have had with this.

My surprise has got him wondering if he should look into trying to have these restrictions removed…I for one would love to hear that 458 bark

He needs to join a club, then his good reason is target shooting and he could then buy ammunition . Later on he could apply to have both conditioned for deer stalking. I fail to see the logic in allowing posession of rifles but no ammunition unless he is leaving the country for a trip. What was his "Good Reason" if he can't use them in the UK?

 

[TheCornishman]

Thanks for the input Namman

To be honest I didn’t ask, but reason will have been for return trips I guess…perhaps that’s where the problem lays?

In the case of the 300wm whilst its not 243,308 territory I see quite a few mentions of them in the UK surely not such an unusual calibre as 458

 

[Namman]

Thanks for the input Namman

To be honest I didn’t ask, but reason will have been for return trips I guess…perhaps that’s where the problem lays?

In the case of the 300wm whilst its not 243,308 territory I see quite a few mentions of them in the UK surely not such an unusual calibre as 458

Many stalkers in the UK have a .300 Win Mag for deer stalking as well as target. There are also many who have .375's and quite a few .458's for stalking . It all depends on where you live and what FEO you have. It's a postcode lottery.
I am sure that all these problems stem from ignorance. There is far more knowledge in the shooting community than those that decide on licensing conditions.
I think some FEO's think anything larger than a .308 requires a tractor unit and a gun team to operate it!!!

N

 

[deerstalker.308]

The condition (however frustrating) is a fairly standard one for the bigger calibers along the lines of “non expanding ammunition on ranges with suitable insurances and on route to and from a port of embarkation”
I’ve never heard this used for 300 win mag before but I guess if it’s not challenged and the justification for it was overseas use, that would be logical. The .458 would logically be primarily justified with big game in mind, and therefore would be fair to say that without further justification would stay limited to overseas use however impractical the silly rules on use here are as they don’t allow you to practice with the chosen ammo should you want to.
I had these conditions initially imposed on my .375 but got them lifted and changed to AOLQ once they were happy my good reason was a planned trip abroad but that it was a suitable tool for Suffolk reds too.

 

[Stalker62]

I had these conditions initially imposed on my .375 but got them lifted and changed to AOLQ once they were happy my good reason was a planned trip abroad but that it was a suitable tool for Suffolk reds too.

Ditto on my .375 for Sika and Red Stags in the rut.

The .416 is limited to zeroing and for "preceding to or returning from a port of embarkation".

I think it is only the Police who "precede" anywhere?

In relation to the restrictions on the .416 - good. It is expensive to feed and uncomfortable to shoot. Damn thing.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Kent authority allowed me my "in Germany" held Win model 70 .338 win mag to be held also in the UK on my FAC but did not even allow it to be used on any ranges in the UK? How to sight it in then? On Kingsdown beach at dawn?

 

[NullMac]

I have a friend who has a similar background to your mate. His rifle was a 470 Nitro Express. His situation was that he was allowed to hold the gun an ammunition but was not allowed to shoot it in the UK as his FEO told him there were no ranges suitable for that calibre in the UK.

Another mate was a member of a club that shot at Otterburn. If a 105mm howitzer is good then so is a 470 NE, so he got zeroing, practice etc on approved ranges or something added.

Find a suitable range

 

[bowji john]

It's a funny old business seeking permission for medium calibre rifles

Certainly finding a club would be the easiest route -

I can think of two off hand

1. Greensleeves Stoke Orchard Range north of Bristol
2. British Sporting Rifle Club - which I plan to join

The route that I took for permission with D & C started with an application for a 9.3 x 62 for foreign use and zero / practice here in the UK and for AOLQ .

D & C sat on my variation for 16 to 18 weeks at a time when variations typically took 5 days. I believe it was a strategy that they employed of deliberately dragging their heels in the hope that the need for the FAC to be returned would initiate a withdrawal of the request .

I'm not sure if that is indeed the case, however, in the end, I enlisted the support of BASC and within the week permission had been granted.

Sometime later I applied for a 404 Jeff - once again based on foreign use - this was granted relatively quickly and included AOLQ

As some of you may know - I have in the past run a DG course for holders of these rifles - a 2 day course based loosely upon the Field Guide Association of Southern Africa Special Knowledge & Skills (DG) course (FGASA SKS(DG) - a course required for trails guides working in and around dangerous game

Very few ranges will allow shooting at moving targets and a whole plethora of standing range rules (HME etc) make it difficult to find a venue for people to attend who hold target conditions only on their FAC

I've been able, in the past, to find private facilities but attendees are required to have ''zeroing / practice on land suitable ...... '' condition on their FAC in order to attend

I am planning further courses but meanwhile I run refresher courses here in Cornwall using .22LR rifles with open sights - not the practice with med calibre that most people require, but at least I can run them here at my place.

I find the practice useful for maintaining the required muscle memory

 

[JTO]

I think Devon & Cornwall police were being realistic in allowing him to keep the weapons. even though he does not appear to have reason to have them, in this country. They might not be so kind when he comes to renew if he has not been abroad with them in recent years.

 

[bowji john]

I think Devon & Cornwall police were being realistic in allowing him to keep the weapons. even though he does not appear to have reason to have them, in this country. They might not be so kind when he comes to renew if he has not been abroad with them in recent years.

Yup - a scenario we might all face if travel doesn't open up !

 

[Namman]

I think Devon & Cornwall police were being realistic in allowing him to keep the weapons. even though he does not appear to have reason to have them, in this country. They might not be so kind when he comes to renew if he has not been abroad with them in recent years.

I wish people would call them "firearms" not "weapons".

 

[Namman]

It's a funny old business seeking permission for medium calibre rifles

Certainly finding a club would be the easiest route -

I can think of two off hand

1. Greensleeves Stoke Orchard Range north of Bristol
2. British Sporting Rifle Club - which I plan to join

The route that I took for permission with D & C started with an application for a 9.3 x 62 for foreign use and zero / practice here in the UK and for AOLQ .

D & C sat on my variation for 16 to 18 weeks at a time when variations typically took 5 days. I believe it was a strategy that they employed of deliberately dragging their heels in the hope that the need for the FAC to be returned would initiate a withdrawal of the request .

I'm not sure if that is indeed the case, however, in the end, I enlisted the support of BASC and within the week permission had been granted.

Sometime later I applied for a 404 Jeff - once again based on foreign use - this was granted relatively quickly and included AOLQ

As some of you may know - I have in the past run a DG course for holders of these rifles - a 2 day course based loosely upon the Field Guide Association of Southern Africa Special Knowledge & Skills (DG) course (FGASA SKS(DG) - a course required for trails guides working in and around dangerous game

Very few ranges will allow shooting at moving targets and a whole plethora of standing range rules (HME etc) make it difficult to find a venue for people to attend who hold target conditions only on their FAC

I've been able, in the past, to find private facilities but attendees are required to have ''zeroing / practice on land suitable ...... '' condition on their FAC in order to attend

I am planning further courses but meanwhile I run refresher courses here in Cornwall using .22LR rifles with open sights - not the practice with med calibre that most people require, but at least I can run them here at my place.

I find the practice useful for maintaining the required muscle memory

I know it's a bit further away, but the all weather, former railway tunnel, range at BARRY in South Wales is rated for up to .50 BMG.
Open Saturdays, Sundays, Wednesdays and Tuesday evenings. Six firing points and targets at 25, 50 ,100 ,150 , and 200metres. Retail shop stocking ammmunition, firearms and reloading equipment.
Tel 01446 746375.

 

[bowji john]

I know it's a bit further away, but the all weather, former railway tunnel, range at BARRY in South Wales is rated for up to .50 BMG.
Open Saturdays, Sundays, Wednesdays and Tuesday evenings. Six firing points and targets at 25, 50 ,100 ,150 , and 200metres. Retail shop stocking ammmunition, firearms and reloading equipment.
Tel 01446 746375.

Thanks Namman

My business partner is going to nip over and take a look - it is just down the road from him

 

[25 Sharps]

Provided he has established good reason then if they follow the guidance there is no requirement to establish good reason for an additional quarry condition. I think it’s 10.13 or somewhere around there in the current guidance, also for 300 win mag (I think) deer may be listed as good reason to possess. He could try highlighting that this is all covered by the current guidance, without sounding like a know it all, and go from there.

However I fear with last week’s event D&C are going to be somewhat in the spotlight so unlikely to be cooperative

 

[deerstalker.308]

Provided he has established good reason then if they follow the guidance there is no requirement to establish good reason for an additional quarry condition. I think it’s 10.13 or somewhere around there in the current guidance, also for 300 win mag (I think) deer may be listed as good reason to possess. He could try highlighting that this is all covered by the current guidance, without sounding like a know it all, and go from there.

However I fear with last week’s event D&C are going to be somewhat in the spotlight so unlikely to be cooperative

Yup, timing is not your friend on this occasion. Very unlikely they will be overly lenient any time soon

 

[25 Sharps]

Provided he has established good reason then if they follow the guidance there is no requirement to establish good reason for an additional quarry condition. I think it’s 10.13 or somewhere around there in the current guidance, also for 300 win mag (I think) deer may be listed as good reason to possess. He could try highlighting that this is all covered by the current guidance, without sounding like a know it all, and go from there.

However I fear with last week’s event D&C are going to be somewhat in the spotlight so unlikely to be cooperative

I was wrong it is 10.48

10.48 There is no requirement to establish ‘good reason’ for additional conditions or the addition of quarry species to an existing condition where ‘good reason’ already exists for the possession of a firearm in the first instance (See chapter 13). Firearms should be conditioned to provide flexibility with quarry shooting by allowing all lawful quarry.

Also wrong on the good reason table (no coffee yet) 300 win mag doesn’t feature it falls between the deer calibres listed .308/.270 and others up to the region of 3000 ft-lb and the DG calibres starting at 338 win mag 3800 ft-lb plus. Plenty of folk have 300 win mag conditioned for deer and / or boar so it really shouldn’t be an issue