Ammunition swap /buy

[Sinistral]

This is as explained to me by my f l m,
Put in application to have calibres/s required by mate included on your own acc it's a reasonable request and a legal one.
Then load for your mate and enter them on his certificate when he picks them up.
Simples.
I have been doing it for years so the the blessing of our force

This is not 'Good Reason' to possess ammunition under the Firearms Acts, and I doubt whether it's legal. No matter what your FLM says, ANY 'off-ticket' ammunition is covered by the Home Office Condition 'NOT TO BE FIRED'. Avon and Somerset (your FLD?) should be following HOG.
Otherwise I stand by what I said in post #2. If it's FAC legal, then covering a friend's outlay of cash & time in providing you with hand-loaded ammunition seems entirely reasonable. It's what goes on, and heaven forbid that this practice should stop. People who do it are usually competent, and stick to recipes which have been prepared before.

It is a criminal offence to sell ammunition 'by way of trade or business' unless a person is a registered RFD. That's not what's portrayed here, where there's no commercial activity. I know of no civil regulations (such as HSE rules), or any criminal offence which outlaws the small-scale making of ammo for a friend, but if so somebody point me to them. This is a private arrangement where each side accepts their share of the risks & liabilities by agreement.

Edinburgh Rifles are manufacturing ammunition for commercial sale so have to comply with CIP standards of safety and proof. HPS who make up custom ammunition to customer order have to do the same.

Hand-loaded ammunition isn't regulated in any way. If it were, then mainstream gun auctions like Holts and Southams would be in trouble. There are always handloads among their 'Ammunition - Lots for Sale'. To be fair they're quite often identified as such in the sales description now. If not they're easy to pick out with the naked eye, with a bit of practice. However, if you don't want to risk firing them then handloads can be a vital source of components. All in all this isn't entirely a bad thing, so let's not be picky in the hard times we're in.

 

[baguio]

Would be a lot safer to pay him nothing but give him a nice birthday and or Christmas present IMO. Keep any idea of payment out of it!

 

[norma 308]

Would be a lot safer to pay him nothing but give him a nice birthday and or Christmas present IMO. Keep any idea of payment out of it!

Yes I’ve a few deer he can shoot or a nice AW knife

 

[Grannysmith]

This is not 'Good Reason' to possess ammunition under the Firearms Acts, and I doubt whether it's legal. No matter what your FLM says, ANY 'off-ticket' ammunition is covered by the Home Office Condition 'NOT TO BE FIRED'. Avon and Somerset (your FLD?) should be following HOG.
Otherwise I stand by what I said in post #2. If it's FAC legal, then covering a friend's outlay of cash & time in providing you with hand-loaded ammunition seems entirely reasonable. It's what goes on, and heaven forbid that this practice should stop. People who do it are usually competent, and stick to recipes which have been prepared before.

It is a criminal offence to sell ammunition 'by way of trade or business' unless a person is a registered RFD. That's not what's portrayed here, where there's no commercial activity. I know of no civil regulations (such as HSE rules), or any criminal offence which outlaws the small-scale making of ammo for a friend, but if so somebody point me to them. This is a private arrangement where each side accepts their share of the risks & liabilities by agreement.

Edinburgh Rifles are manufacturing ammunition for commercial sale so have to comply with CIP standards of safety and proof. HPS who make up custom ammunition to customer order have to do the same.

Hand-loaded ammunition isn't regulated in any way. If it were, then mainstream gun auctions like Holts and Southams would be in trouble. There are always handloads among their 'Ammunition - Lots for Sale'. To be fair they're quite often identified as such in the sales description now. If not they're easy to pick out with the naked eye, with a bit of practice. However, if you don't want to risk firing them then handloads can be a vital source of components. All in all this isn't entirely a bad thing, so let's not be picky in the hard times we're in.

Although I do not posses a rifle of his calibre it is on my cert to posses ammunition of that cal and no money changes hands

 

[Grannysmith]

But you're presumably not selling them?

Nope

 

[Liveonce]

If you make and sell ammunition to someone else doesn't the proof house need to get involved?

Yup, needs to be CIP approved. Plus insurance.

Just ask HPS or another commercial ammunition assembler.

No you do not need to be CIP approved, it is voluntary in the U.K., ring the Birmingham proof house and ask them.

Insurance possibly, unless big enough to cover the risk, but as it was put to me once any evidence goes bang with the incident. Some manufactures actually include a liability disclaimer on their packaging if you read the small print.

On the other hand transporting unclassified explosive articles is against the law ask the HSE as the competent authority in the U.K.

Home loaders get exemptions under both CIP (otherwise nobody in the EU could reload) and U.K. explosive regulations.

 

[Sinistral]

Would be a lot safer to pay him nothing but give him a nice birthday and or Christmas present IMO. Keep any idea of payment out of it!

That's defined as pecuniary advantage, so just the same thing.

Although I do not posses a rifle of his calibre it is on my cert to posses ammunition of that cal and no money changes hands

I don't care what your FAC says. A&S are wrong, and they should know that.

You can only have ammunition for a rifle in the calibre(s) you possess. You provide the COP with good reason for that rifle under the Firearms Acts as quarry use,target shooting, veterinary use, whatever, so you then get an ammo allocation to go along with it. That good reason for both rifle and ammo is prescribed by law so both you and the COP are bound by it. You can't have an allocation or possess ammunition for a firearm you don't have on your FAC ('off-ticket' ammo), certainly not to make ammo for others.

The only other category of persons who can be licenced are Condition 14 - firearms and ammunition collectors. Normally, firearms collectors are refused an ammunition allocation for the calibre of firearms they hold as a collector. In that vein, ammunition collectors can't have firearms for their 'off-ticket ammo'. Generally, use of either firearms or ammunition held as 'a collection'is prohibited under the 'Collector Condition' as 'NOT TO BE FIRED'.
Look up the HOG Conditions Appendix 3 Page 233.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

 

[8x57]

" You can't have an allocation or possess ammunition for a firearm you don't have on your FAC"

Not absolutely or entirely correct there mate. As with all things firearms legislation related there are exceptions to the rule/norm.
I have an allocation for .32 pistol ammunition on my FAC and I don't own a .32 pistol.
It's so that I can possess .32 ammunition for short range practice and dispatching using my 8mm rifle and a chamber adapter.

 

[Utectok]

I think it can be done if your friend loads the rounds and you seat the bullet and complete the job and take them home. It won’t have to go on your FAC if it’s made into a complete round by you (provided you don’t exceed your allocation of that round). Finally entirely coincidentally you might give your friend a bottle of whisky for Christmas?

 

[mealiejimmy]

Doesn't it legally become a round when a primer is fitted ?


Cheers

Bruce

 

[Liveonce]

Doesn't it legally become a round when a primer is fitted ?


Cheers

Bruce

Nope

Edit
Unless you seat the bullet into an empty unprimed case then add the powder via the primer flash hole and then finally seat the primer, not a practice I would recommend

 

[Sinistral]

Not absolutely or entirely correct there mate. As with all things firearms legislation related there are exceptions to the rule/norm.
I have an allocation for .32 pistol ammunition on my FAC and I don't own a .32 pistol.
It's so that I can possess .32 ammunition for short range practice and dispatching using my 8mm rifle and a chamber adapter.

Aren't we splitting hairs now perhaps? This isn't in the same league.
Chamber adaptors are hardly in mainstream use, but .32 rimmed is ancillary ammunition for an 8mm rifle you own.
You applied for it and justified it for an on-ticket rifle, I'm sure.

 

[vpk999]

Just reload yourself or buy factory ammo. Simple!

 

[mealiejimmy]

Nope

Edit
Unless you seat the bullet into an empty unprimed case then add the powder via the primer flash hole and then finally seat the primer, not a practice I would recommend

Since primers are the only thing that you need to show your FAC to buy, it stands to reason that once the primer is fitted into the case, then the case/primer assembly becomes subject to the Firearms Act.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that if you fit primers into more cases than you are allowed complete cartridges, then you would be exceeding your ammo allowance.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Liveonce]

Since primers are the only thing that you need to show your FAC to buy, it stands to reason that once the primer is fitted into the case, then the case/primer assembly becomes subject to the Firearms Act.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that if you fit primers into more cases than you are allowed complete cartridges, then you would be exceeding your ammo allowance.

Cheers

Bruce

Primers are not controlled by virtue of the firearms act but by the violent crime reduction bill, which controls the sale by RFDs only not by any other means, eg. Your mate down the pub.
It was another poorly thought out legislation, as it is possible to buy them mail order from within the EU or in person in the shops. Mind you Brexit small value orders/VAT has impacted on the mail orders.

If you extend your thought process then you should only be allowed to buy primers in the same quantity as ammunition as per your FAC.

 

[8x57]

Since primers are the only thing that you need to show your FAC to buy, it stands to reason that once the primer is fitted into the case, then the case/primer assembly becomes subject to the Firearms Act.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that if you fit primers into more cases than you are allowed complete cartridges, then you would be exceeding your ammo allowance.

Cheers

Bruce

That's not quite right either. Reloading powders are also controlled. Shooters by virtue of holding either a FAC or a SGC are exempted of the requirement to hold an explosives license for relevant powders but even then only so long as they don't exceed the limit (15 Kg if I remember correctly).

Sinistral yes splitting hairs, but only to demonstrate that there are very few absolutes in the firearms acts and oh so many variables or exceptions.

 

[Liveonce]

That's not quite right either. Reloading powders are also controlled. Shooters by virtue of holding either a FAC or a SGC are exempted of the requirement to hold an explosives license for relevant powders but even then only so long as they don't exceed the limit (15 Kg if I remember correctly).

Correct, again reloading powders are not controlled by the firearms act but by the explosive regulations, as a FAC or SGC holder then their is an exemption to allow home loading within the regulations.

Edit
The 15kg limit includes all propellant even that already in any ammunition/cartridges you may have.

 

[paul o']

No problems reloading for another as long as you both can hold that cal and only after doing load development along with them with there rifle to get the best results or there's no point in doing it .

 

[308tikka]

No you do not need to be CIP approved, it is voluntary in the U.K., ring the Birmingham proof house and ask them.

Insurance possibly, unless big enough to cover the risk, but as it was put to me once any evidence goes bang with the incident. Some manufactures actually include a liability disclaimer on their packaging if you read the small print.

On the other hand transporting unclassified explosive articles is against the law ask the HSE as the competent authority in the U.K.

Home loaders get exemptions under both CIP (otherwise nobody in the EU could reload) and U.K. explosive regulations.

You can transfer. You cant sell commercially. That is from the proof house-its why you submit samples for CIP approval.


I would strongly suggest asking your insurance provider. Lets see if youre covered for that.

 

[308tikka]

You can transfer. You cant sell commercially. That is from the proof house-its why you submit samples for CIP approval.


I would strongly suggest asking your insurance provider. Lets see if youre covered for that.

And it is threads like this that are monitored and the dickheads involved advertising their foolishness, will only bring yet tighter regulations on those of us who do reload in quantity.