kenbro
Well-Known Member
Spoke with the friends who lease the Toyota Corolla today (currently in London) and they have no congestion charges to pay when driving in London.
Ken.
The future is electric
- Thread starter steve sxs
- Start date
Ken.
For those electric car lovers, here are some figures for you to ponder, and no doubt disagree with!
Total fuel consumption for US airlines is 11.875 billion imp gallons.
Fuel consumption for mining ore for electric car batteries is 13.125 billion imp gallons. Both, annual consumption.
The ore produced in one year will make 250,000 electric car batteries, with an expected life span of around ten years. (Admittedly preventing the formation of dendrites will improve life span).
So, by 2050, there is likely to be around 22,321 tonnes of car batteries in landfill.
Total fuel consumption for US airlines is 11.875 billion imp gallons.
Fuel consumption for mining ore for electric car batteries is 13.125 billion imp gallons. Both, annual consumption.
The ore produced in one year will make 250,000 electric car batteries, with an expected life span of around ten years. (Admittedly preventing the formation of dendrites will improve life span).
So, by 2050, there is likely to be around 22,321 tonnes of car batteries in landfill.
xavierdoc
Well-Known Member
What sources, because the lie is right there in front of your face: if the total fuel burned in one year can only produce 250,000 batteries, then you are saying only 250,000 batteries were produced (question - what is a 'battery' - phone battery, Laptop or a 75-100 kWh battery in a Tesla?)
Yet Tesla sold over 500k vehicles in 2020, and other manufacturers shipped at least as many as that together. Then add in all the home battery storage, industrial battery storage and you would be conservatively at 2 million batteries (arguably 10 to 100 times this depending on that definition of 'battery'). So apparently somewhere between 1.75M batteries and 99.75 million (if we agree a “battery” is a minimum of a 1kWh pack) batteries sprang into existence without any mining at all. Ask them to explain that obvious flaw in their 'information'.
In any case, Batteries last more than ten years and can be repurposed, refurbished or recycled.
Fact check stuff that you are going to cut-and-paste: you may stop yourself being manipulated and learn something to your benefit (and the planet's) into the bargain.
EV v ICE Perhaps this will help, for balance (yes, its sources are referenced.)
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If only I knew how to copy and paste.
I have however returned your comments to the person who gave me the 'information ' and look forward to his defence.
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Read somewhere this week that a bigger percentage of EVs break down in the first 4 years of their life than petrol or diesel. Least breakdowns with petrol power, then diesel and EVs top both. Mainly software problems.
K.
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Do they "break down" as in stranded at the side of the road or "break down" as in a warning light on the dash that says go to the dealer?
I think you had better tell us your source for this statistic - and let us see who produced this figure - probably someone or some entity that doesn't like electric cars
There is more misinforamtion about electric cars than even Vladimir Putin is spouting at the moment
Cheers
Bruce
I think you had better tell us your source for this statistic - and let us see who produced this figure - probably someone or some entity that doesn't like electric cars
There is more misinforamtion about electric cars than even Vladimir Putin is spouting at the moment
Cheers
Bruce
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure it was in the DAILY FAIL. Possibly one week yesterday as wifey only buys on Saturdays for tv magazine.
Ken.
First google brings up Which? doing survey.
Franchi Matt
Well-Known Member
I remember early concerns about EVs being stuck stationary for long periods of time like in motorway closures where the heaters will kill batteries failry quickly... resulting in either frozen occupants or stranded cars...
Anyone comfim or explain that one?
Mrs Franchi Matt has become accustomed to a constant 19 to 21 degrees while stationary or moving.
Anyone comfim or explain that one?
Mrs Franchi Matt has become accustomed to a constant 19 to 21 degrees while stationary or moving.
Well, if it was the DAILY FAIL we can be 100% certain the story was merely in the febrile imagination of it's writer and had absolutely nothing to do with facts
Cheers
Bruce
There just isnt the annual global mining and refining capacity (both also hated by eco fascists) to replace the numbers of ICE vehicles produced on an annual basis with electric/battery versions.
Its a pipe dream for the financially illiterate. And that was before Putin’s excursion into Ukraine and the impending energy shock.
Far more chance of private transport being made so prohibitively expensive you either work from home, walk or cycle to work or use public transport.
Luckily most of the population have had a trial run over the past two years....
Not much chance of you fitting a fallow on the rear panniers however.
Its a pipe dream for the financially illiterate. And that was before Putin’s excursion into Ukraine and the impending energy shock.
Far more chance of private transport being made so prohibitively expensive you either work from home, walk or cycle to work or use public transport.
Luckily most of the population have had a trial run over the past two years....
Not much chance of you fitting a fallow on the rear panniers however.
Yet more anti ev propaganda.
The changeover from ice to ev will not happen overnight and in the case of heavy commercial vehicles - is a long way off, so annual production of battery materials does not have to be sufficent to replace all ice vehicles in a single year
There is no shortage of the raw materials for making batteries - especially when you discover that most new evs will use lithium iron phospahte batteries
Also, ev batteries are no only rechargeable, they are recyclable. At the end of an evs life, most of the raw material from which the battery was made can be recycled and used again
There may be an increase in the use of public transport - and that can be driven by government policy on road pricing etc, but having had the freedom that comes with car ownership for several generations, most people would not be prepared to give that up.
It's true that Putins invasion of Ukraine is having the effect of driving up energy prices, but charging an ev is still much much cheaper than filling the tank of a car with petrol or diesel
Cheers
Bruce
The changeover from ice to ev will not happen overnight and in the case of heavy commercial vehicles - is a long way off, so annual production of battery materials does not have to be sufficent to replace all ice vehicles in a single year
There is no shortage of the raw materials for making batteries - especially when you discover that most new evs will use lithium iron phospahte batteries
Also, ev batteries are no only rechargeable, they are recyclable. At the end of an evs life, most of the raw material from which the battery was made can be recycled and used again
There may be an increase in the use of public transport - and that can be driven by government policy on road pricing etc, but having had the freedom that comes with car ownership for several generations, most people would not be prepared to give that up.
It's true that Putins invasion of Ukraine is having the effect of driving up energy prices, but charging an ev is still much much cheaper than filling the tank of a car with petrol or diesel
Cheers
Bruce
Bloody electric cars, my Lecky bill has just doubled, my oil has gone up 30percent.
So charging a car will get more expensive than a diesel fill up.
The damn things are dangerous as well, went to cross the village street and one came round the corner I had to jump out of the way. Normally hear traffic a long way off,, not these damn things.
So charging a car will get more expensive than a diesel fill up.
The damn things are dangerous as well, went to cross the village street and one came round the corner I had to jump out of the way. Normally hear traffic a long way off,, not these damn things.
Driverless cars are simply a bad idea unless you ban all driven cars. That snot going to happen.
Its always propaganda when you disagree with it....?
The costs of production (in environmental terms) are always understated. Lithium, manganese, cobalt require enormous amounts of energy to refine.
Hydrogen would be a much better bet, both sustainably in production terms (split H2O) than deep cast mining, and in emissions. Not to mention the infrastructure costs and everyone wanting to charge at the same time.
Unless of course you wish to be an available supplier via your car battery to the grid.
Age of battery and replacement, and lack of current recyclers mean deep cast mining will continue. Horrendous in environmental terms and in no way can it match the supply needed for annual production of ICE vehicles for personal use.
Where there is a sustainable EV market is in bikes and for fleet vehicles and public buses. Low emissions in cities are preferred and can be charged at commercial premises. Just not suited to the types of home we have in the UK, current grid, and of course in the non-densely populated urban areas. To change that would be prohibitively expensive-and were already in deep debt after covid and with a worldwide recession looking more likely by the day.
The costs of production (in environmental terms) are always understated. Lithium, manganese, cobalt require enormous amounts of energy to refine.
Hydrogen would be a much better bet, both sustainably in production terms (split H2O) than deep cast mining, and in emissions. Not to mention the infrastructure costs and everyone wanting to charge at the same time.
Unless of course you wish to be an available supplier via your car battery to the grid.
Age of battery and replacement, and lack of current recyclers mean deep cast mining will continue. Horrendous in environmental terms and in no way can it match the supply needed for annual production of ICE vehicles for personal use.
Where there is a sustainable EV market is in bikes and for fleet vehicles and public buses. Low emissions in cities are preferred and can be charged at commercial premises. Just not suited to the types of home we have in the UK, current grid, and of course in the non-densely populated urban areas. To change that would be prohibitively expensive-and were already in deep debt after covid and with a worldwide recession looking more likely by the day.
Would petrochemical fuel be more expensive even now if it didn't have both fuel tax and then VAT on top? What makes you think HMG will walk away from the vast amount of revenue ICE fuel sales provide? (£28 Billion in Fuel Tax alone in 2019/20) There will either be road pricing or a requirement for separate metering with the latter paying a road vehicle fuel tax supplement as now. For many users, the future will most likely be far more expensive than today.
I'm perhaps a tad cynical on all this. As a teenager in the 1960s when the country was investing heavily in the first and second generation nukes, it was a common assertion in the press and on TV science programmes like 'Tomorrow's World' that electricity would be almost free once generating plant capital costs were covered, the marginal costs of producing power being so low.
I've never owned a new vehicle in my life and recent ICE petrol cars have a potentially massively long life, not recent diesel sadly with all the EU emissions control bells & whistles strapped all over them, giving long and good value second/third/fourth hand ownership possibilities. As another 70-plus year old friend in the same boat (even more so as he owns both pre-war vintage cars and a more recent but still very elderly Saab 900 Turbo) says, what is the battery life and actual driving ranges of three, four, five year old EVs? There is already a Youtube video around of a Finnish s/h Tesla owner having his car dynamited as the battery failed after only a few years running and the replacement cost is 17,000 Euros - only Tesla has told him that only they can replace the battery, and they'd have to consider whether that even feasible at any price.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
In the factory in Fremont I watched the battery units being raised up to marry to the S vehicles structure, very high tech indeed with 11 bolts down each side being firmed up and perhaps this is only possible with high investment costs for a repair garage to lift the vehicle off the battery unit kinda like a Defender chassis change, then how often will it need to be used per year, perhaps they will just advise to scrap the car.
Thus speaks someone who knows nothing about the relative costs of filling an ice car with diesel or petrol and charging an electric vehicleBloody electric cars, my Lecky bill has just doubled, my oil has gone up 30percent.
So charging a car will get more expensive than a diesel fill up.
The damn things are dangerous as well, went to cross the village street and one came round the corner I had to jump out of the way. Normally hear traffic a long way off,, not these damn things.
Including charging losses, most electric cars will travel 3 miles on a single kilowatt hour of electricity
At a typical standard rate tariff for electricity of 27p per kilowatt hour, that works out at 9p per mile for your fuel.
Most people charge at night on a lower tariff, but we'll ignore that for just now
At the current rate of £1.55 per litre for diesel (£7.00 per gallon) and with a generous consumptiom of 50mpg, that works out at a cost per mile for diesel of 14p
Lat time I looked, 9p was less than 14p
Cheers
Bruce
I'm pretty sure that's just what's going to happen. Leasing and hire companies will find then that three-year residuals are as fraction of what they are now in percentage terms of the original cost and their prices will rise accordingly. Even if we eventually get 'cheap' new EV prices, which as per my remarks on 'free nuclear industry electricity' I'd bet will never be delivered, cars risk becoming buy new and throw away / replace items pricing a great number of people out of the market. In effect buying a high-mileage ex fleet EV that is three, four years old will be like buying a 10, 12-year old Mondeo or Vauxhall Astra, Insignia etc. now. Cheap up front, but it goes to the scrapper as soon as something expensive fails, in this case the battery.
On a separate but related note, as a regular user of the central section of the M62, the country's highest motorway, a common cause of major delays occasionally complete shutdowns is the single accident (often relatively minor), much more commonly a single broken down vehicle. I really wonder what happens on a future winter's day in a near blizzard when the motorway is closed for a couple of hours, or three or four, and the several thousand vehicles four lanes wide behind are composed of 25, 30, 50, maybe a majority, of EVs that face having the lights or heating on or having enough charge to carry on once the traffic starts moving again. It'll only take a handful to be 'flat' on reopening to cause a secondary and in practice complete road shutdown knowing just how much disruption a single vehicle breakdown on one lane currently causes.
