Dog breeding question

[John Gryphon]

Have to disagree strongly John but that’s discussion

With what exactly?

 

[foxdropper]

That the bitch is worth more than the dog .Bred terriers for 35 years John .Out of it now but one thing stood out and that was that a good dog of the character required will do more to set genes than a bitch will .My own findings were that a dog of the right sort put over multiple bitches of the right sort was the way to go .Not saying it’s right or the only way but based on experience not theory .
A dog will stamp more traits than a bitch but a bitch will determine conformity .Again JMO.

 

[Buchan]

My bitch will be just six when she next comes into season, will she be over the hill - too old to breed? She is working well, bags of energy and in great form.

Also despite parents being: fox red (dam), and liver and white (sire), the whole litter came out black! Is black a dominant dog gene colour? The lucky Sire will be liver and white, is there any way to determine or predict what colour the pups would be?

She is a well known cross between two of the well known larger deer / gun dog breeds. I'd prefer not to name the cross because I know a few on here are not enthusiastic about crossing breeds, and I respect that. Anyway she's great company and a great working dog and I'd rather the crossing debate not detract from the question.

6 isn't too old if she is healthy. I assume being a workign dog she's not a lardarse.

Dog genetics on coat colour is weird. Probably because humans got involved!

 

[Keith Edmunds]

That the bitch is worth more than the dog .Bred terriers for 35 years John .Out of it now but one thing stood out and that was that a good dog of the character required will do more to set genes than a bitch will .My own findings were that a dog of the right sort put over multiple bitches of the right sort was the way to go .Not saying it’s right or the only way but based on experience not theory .
A dog will stamp more traits than a bitch but a bitch will determine conformity .Again JMO.

I think much of it comes down to genetics and what dominant genes are carried by which parent. As far as character is concerned, I think the dam has more chance of 'influencing' some character, simply because she is rearing them (nurture) however, even if you have a soft dam from soft lines - a sire from very driven, hardcore lines will certainly genetically influence the character of the pups based on 'nature'......Or vice versa

 

[foxdropper]

I guess I’m very biased .
I started with three bitches gifted to me by an old gent many years ago which I worked in the style allowed back in the day .One was barely 2 years old the other two litter sisters and were roughly 4 .The two year old was full sister to the other two ,same sire ,same dam .
I sourced a dog from a well known breeder and worked him also before using him across all 3 bitches .The results were excellent ,I gifted some and kept the rest .I then used the same sire over his daughters ,gifting all the dogs .Did this for three generations then looked at all the dogs I’d gifted ,how they were working and used the very best over subsequent litters .Line breeding I believe .
They we’re like peas in a pod ,bitches working like dogs and all pretty hard .
I knew several other lads in the game who’s breeding was very haphazard ,bring in this and that with no two litters the same and work iffy at best so stuck by my breeding .
This isn’t meant to be a lecture just what worked for me .I know other lads breed father to daughter ,son to mother and various other combinations but the size seems to suffer as well as drive in the long term .
By using the one sire over multiple bitches it became apparent his style of work came through on 80% of them not just a few good uns .
There were culls don’t get me wrong but probably due to my entering at 18 months and not giving them more time .They we’re passed on to rat only lads never pet homes .Patterdales don’t do well in a stale house environment ive found .
If you do your homework on the best working kennels in the country I’ll bet there system isn’t too far from my own .
Havnt bred anything since 2016 but can’t imagine much has changed .
The wider picture is that there are 5 good lads still taking the line forward using exact same method and respect to all of them

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I guess I’m very biased .
I started with three bitches gifted to me by an old gent many years ago which I worked in the style allowed back in the day .One was barely 2 years old the other two litter sisters and were roughly 4 .The two year old was full sister to the other two ,same sire ,same dam .
I sourced a dog from a well known breeder and worked him also before using him across all 3 bitches .The results were excellent ,I gifted some and reared the rest .I then used the same sire over his daughters ,gifting all the dogs .Did this for three generations then looked at all the dogs I’d gifted ,how they were working and used the very best over subsequent litters .Line breeding I believe .
They we’re like peas in a pod ,bitches working like dogs and all pretty hard .
I knew several other lads in the game who’s breeding was very haphazard ,bring in this and that with no two litters the same and work iffy at best so stuck by my breeding .
This isn’t meant to be a lecture just what worked for me .I know other lads breed father to daughter ,son to mother and various other combinations but the size seems to suffer as well as drive in the long term .
By using the one sire over multiple bitches it became apparent his style of work came through on 80% of them not just a few good uns .
There were culls don’t get me wrong but probably due to my entering at 18 months and not giving them more time .They we’re passed on to rat only lads never pet homes .Patterdales don’t do well in a stale house environment ive found .
If you do your homework on the best working kennels in the country I’ll bet there system isn’t too far from my own .
Havnt bred anything since 2016 but can’t imagine much has changed .
The wider picture is that there are 5 good lads still taking the line forward using exact same method and respect to all of them

I think we agree....It's down to genetics

 

[foxdropper]

Yes sir .Without which ,it’s a very hit and mix situation that some never grasp .

 

[Lloyd90]

I must agree....I raised my eyebrows at most of what was written in that piece......At best, a guideline....at worst misinformation.

Interesting reading, how true it is i don't know thou.

It says the top dogs are bred from sires under 5 years old, a hell of a lot of bitches will be sired by studs a lot older the 5.

A few of the top breeders with a kennel full of FTCH studs would not want that to become the popular way of thinking in UK, would certainly cut their income down.
Hell they're is a breeder up the road with a cracking yellow dog that has been and still is so busy its hard to get a yellow dog without it in the pedigree, it must be over 10 now.

Might be an interesting study if ur into number crunching comparing FTCH's with the age of the stud dog
Not entirely sure i believe it will affect quality as genetics should be the same just either less sperm and less healthy sperm, once in the egg it shouldn't matter

I was always told that the number of pups is all down to how many eggs the bitch produces / releases and has nothing to do with the dog at all.

Was surprised by that article myself.

So which is it?

 

[shakey jake]

I was always told that the number of pups is all down to how many eggs the bitch produces / releases and has nothing to do with the dog at all.

Was surprised by that article myself.

So which is it?

it can only be down to number of eggs, if the bitch produces two thats the most, pups(excluding true twins) if she produces twelve you could get that many, repeat coverings increase the chance of full fertilisation. how any other scenario could be thought up is just old wives tails, my mum was taught that once a bitch had a cross breed mating she could ever produce pedigree pups? she was from a weird essex village

 

[John Gryphon]

That the bitch is worth more than the dog .Bred terriers for 35 years John .Out of it now but one thing stood out and that was that a good dog of the character required will do more to set genes than a bitch will .My own findings were that a dog of the right sort put over multiple bitches of the right sort was the way to go .Not saying it’s right or the only way but based on experience not theory .
A dog will stamp more traits than a bitch but a bitch will determine conformity .Again JMO.

Each to their own. I too have had a lifetime of breeding,not for others but for myself basically,find/catch/hold boar dogs,pointers and sight hounds with a fair few earth terriers thrown in. I reiterate in that best bitches make best pups. The best dog over a weak bitch will produce the same weak line in pups.....no good having doggy letting go of a boar as you sink the steel in.

 

[foxdropper]

Probably not too far apart John .Decent stock is the key whatever breeding is undertaken ,I’d never try to create a decent dog from crap .Only one life live it .

 

[Lloyd90]

Each to their own. I too have had a lifetime of breeding,not for others but for myself basically,find/catch/hold boar dogs,pointers and sight hounds with a fair few earth terriers thrown in. I reiterate in that best bitches make best pups. The best dog over a weak bitch will produce the same weak line in pups.....no good having doggy letting go of a boar as you sink the steel in.

John, if you don’t mind, Can we discuss more about the phrase you use, hybrid vigour.

I have seen it used by plenty of people, but also often seen it said you can just as easily get the worst of both breeds!

 

[John Gryphon]

but also often seen it said you can just as easily get the worst of both breeds!

There can often be more than two breeds in the mix.

 

[Lloyd90]

There can often be more than two breeds in the mix.

But does that melting pop add the best of all the breeds involved?

Personally I can’t see how anyone can breed two different breeds and claim they will have enhanced vigour… if that was the case why would the individual breeds exist?

Surely people would have created these hybrids flat out and the original breeds would no longer be needed.

 

[John Gryphon]

The PURE breeds are generally hybrids themselves lol......here is an extract...

The German shorthaired pointer was no accident. The dog's roots trace back to the 1600s, when the heavy Spanish pointer was crossed with the Hanoverian hound to produce a dog that was interested in both trailing mammals and pointing birds.

 

[foxdropper]

But does that melting pop add the best of all the breeds involved?

Personally I can’t see how anyone can breed two different breeds and claim they will have enhanced vigour… if that was the case why would the individual breeds exist?

Surely people would have created these hybrids flat out and the original breeds would no longer be needed.

In the world of pedigree dogs mate ,the gene pool of genuine workers is often small despite many individuals bred to look the part .
I know of a few ‘pure ‘bred strains of working terriers and gun dogs that have been pepped by the addition of closely related other types .
The Lakeland is often put over borders to try revive some earthwork .The first cross shows the influence but subsequent crosses put back to borders are indistinguishable from pure borders except they may have retained some working ethics .
Hybrid vigour
Just one example but there are many more .
Im not an advocate of cross breeding for any other sake than to save it from being just another show pony .
My own line only ever used another patterdale dog I originally bred that was put over a bitch from another line and that line taken forward with good results .
Thats an outcross though not a case for hybrid vigour .
Im guessing John wasn’t too happy with what was about and set out to create something he could work with .Hybrids can bring the best of both types but can also bring in undesirable traits from one or both too .
Hybrids rarely breed true to type unless put to another hybrid of same breeding ie full sister ,brother .
Bull breeds have been used over other breeds for different reasons to either increase prey drive ,add jaw or hardness or all of that .Whats needed is the full honest history of both types before crossing to establish whether there’s traits undesired ie undershot or poor skin .
Its a complex thing and done right needs a whole lifetime or lads are just playing at it .
Take an American pit over a coursing greyhound for instance ,combines prey drive ,jaw and stamina with speed and athletism to produce a useful hunting dog .Those first cross put to first cross then onward create types that breed true that we know call bullx.

 

[countrryboy]

it can only be down to number of eggs, if the bitch produces two thats the most, pups(excluding true twins) if she produces twelve you could get that many, repeat coverings increase the chance of full fertilisation. how any other scenario could be thought up is just old wives tails, my mum was taught that once a bitch had a cross breed mating she could ever produce pedigree pups? she was from a weird essex village

Really it would take a proper study or someone with plenty time on there hands, althou i dare say u could fairly easy chart the litter size of some famous studs against there age and see if litter size does decrease with age.
Some of these big studs will be sireing so many litters any variations in bitch health should even out year on year

I can see the possibility as they age if they are producing less sperm ( and i know it will still be millions, but young dogs must produce 2 or 3X that for a reason) or the sperm are less fit or die quicker
I could see the reason in nature too if in the wild a bitch was lined by an older and a younger dog, be more chance of the younger dog fathering more pups, assuming the oldr dog has already passed his genes on.

U also hear of it in humans if males have low or slow sperm, there still producing more than the 1 or 2 they actually need, so i wouldn't say it is 100% the bitch limiting it but no doubt she will have the biggest say in litter size.


I know some of the old timers i work/train my dogs along side always thought age made a difference to litter size they also thought the bitch's line was far more important than the sire's.
To be honest it doesn't make that much sense to me as they both put 50% of genes in, but these boys have bred thousands of pups over the decades, some of their studs are doing 2+ a week.
I do think they're will be some merit to it but more as wot jG said, they will have a lot of very poor bitches being lined by their dogs and the way breeding is in this country now that is the normal, sticking any old bitch to the most fashionable FTCH and charging a fortune for pups.
If red letters ( if red letters are the best judge of working ability) in the bitches lines u know they're really has been some good stuff in her line rather than a succesion of unknown or poor dogs

 

[countrryboy]

John, if you don’t mind, Can we discuss more about the phrase you use, hybrid vigour.

I have seen it used by plenty of people, but also often seen it said you can just as easily get the worst of both breeds!

Hybrid vigor is more about growth and health rather than working ability.
So yes u could get the worst in both breeds but they should still grow quickier and be healthier long term

Thats why an awful lot of meat (beef, or lamb) will come from cross bred stock for that reason, but most UK farmers won't use the X breeds for breeding past the 2nd gen, unless they have formed theyre own 'mini breed', like blue grey cattle or scotch mule sheep, but even scoth mule sheep i can't think of many breeding off them.
And most will keep some pure lines for breeding the replacements breeding stock and X breed wot they sell for fattening/meat

As u have bred a cross breed u tend not to have any inherited diseases even if 1 of the parents carried that disease because the other parent will be guaranteed not to have it if a breed specific disease, but after the 2nd gen these diseases can sneak back in as usually at a basic level u would need the disease gene on both sides of the mating for the pups to be affected.
Breeding 2 different breeds the other side will never be a carrier, but when u get into 2nd gen+ some pups could be carrying genetic defects from both original breeds

In the old days i was told it was illegal to own a cross bred bull and the ministry would come round and kill it if u had 1, and even now u'd only have 1 for bull beef

 

[John Gryphon]

There are the examples of the pure breeds that are so closely related that 'problems' can surface in some of the lines.
A hunt mate sourced a Brittany Spaniel from NZ,flew over and bought a pup as the lines in Australia at the time (acc to him) NEEDED new blood to reinvigorate the Aus lines as there hadnt been any new blood imported for years......but breeders/money makers continue to breed relatives..bit like on some islands in the world lol.

A wire hair and a short hair pointer X of the German breeds can produce some terribly handy dogs and gets away from the close lines.

 

[Doric]

A good bitch with breeding behind her should produce good pups if put to a good dog with breeding behind him.
A mediocre bitch put to a mediocre dog both with mediocre blood lines may produce some good pups but the percentage of good pups will be a lot less.
The Covid pandemic has done little for any of the breeds in general and gundog breeds in particular. I see a great many litters bred for financial reasons rather than the beterment of the breeds. Very poor quality bitches that should never be bread from have born litters of poor quality pups. These breeders will not have had their bitches checked for hereditary diseases thats for sure.
If you are looking for a pup please think hard what is the best breed for you, get expert advice, select from pure working and Field Trial lines with sire and dam having good hip, elbow, eye scores etc. By doing this the chance of getting a plug will be greatly reduced.