Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

I call bullsh1t on the above.
Below (if I can upload the pics 😂) you will see 2 pure lead bullets cast by myself. One is unfired the other has been shot at ballistics gelatine (I have access to this as a consequence of my job).
You will note that the weight of both bullets is as near to being the same as makes no difference in a cast lead bullet

I have shot deer with these bullets and will continue to do so. Perfect performance on all the deer I have shot so far and no evidence of bullet fragmentation or indeed melting 😂
Your cast lead bullet is being shot how fast?
If your looking for proof that shows lead dispersion look no further: Fig. 1 Radiograph of a roe deer shot with a single unbonded lead rifle...
 
Your cast lead bullet is being shot how fast?
If your looking for proof that shows lead dispersion look no further: Fig. 1 Radiograph of a roe deer shot with a single unbonded lead rifle...
Where the bullet is described as unbounded in the link you posted, that would suggest it was a copper jacketed bullet?
Is further information available regarding the particular bullet used (ie it may have been varmint bullet or an expanding bullet pushed fast)?

In any case. We can see from my example that not ALL lead bullets fragment. And they certainly don’t melt 😂

The weight of my recovered cast lead bullet proves this pretty conclusively don’t you think?
 
My concern is that we f lead bullets are banned in a sweeping move, certain practitioners of more fringe shooting disciplines may be prevented from shooting.

I strongly disagree with the members who seem to be disregarding the problems a lead ban might cause others because it doesn’t necessarily affect THEM in any way. Divided we fall, and if we are that divided then maybe we deserve to
 
Where the bullet is described as unbounded in the link you posted, that would suggest it was a copper jacketed bullet?
Is further information available regarding the particular bullet used (ie it may have been varmint bullet or an expanding bullet pushed fast)?

In any case. We can see from my example that not ALL lead bullets fragment. And they certainly don’t melt 😂

The weight of my recovered cast lead bullet proves this pretty conclusively don’t you think?
No, it proves that at MV’s of less than 1600FPS lead acts a solid, above that velocity it melts on its way down the barrel.
Why did you think we invented the copper jacket in the first place?
 
Nope, there are already plenty of good steel options for the 20 bore, and for the 16, 28 and 410 there are Bismuth options and manufacturers websites say other options will be forthcoming.

Most of the options currently on the market, 12 bore included are in brands earmarked for game shooting rather than clays.

As pointed out elsewhere current lead clay shooting cartridges tend to be priced £10 to £20 less per 250 cartridges than an equivalent game cartridge. Not really that much difference other than shot size.

Given that steel game are similar price point to standard game, you would expect the clay steel will be priced on a par with standard clay cartridges.
Do you seriously expect people to buy bismuth for ratting with a .410
 
That is interesting, but it is not clear how much is between the skin and the ribs, vs in the chest cavity.
There’s an X-ray of a boar shot with a standard jacketed bullet about, sorry but I don’t have the link, lead shards are up to 30Cms from the impact zone.
 
No, it proves that at MV’s of less than 1600FPS lead acts a solid, above that velocity it melts on its way down the barrel.
Why did you think we invented the copper jacket in the first place?
To prevent leading of the barrel.

Doesn’t contradict my point at all. Lead does not melt on contact with an animal as previously stated.
 
To prevent leading of the barrel.

Doesn’t contradict my point at all. Lead does not melt on contact with an animal as previously stated.
You are probably right, but if you shot your slug at the same velocity as a regular deer calibre then it would fragment beyond belief.
 
It seems the focus from the BASC and the other proponents seems to be shotgun cartridges and deer stalking, there are the solutions. There are no solutions that are workable for airguns, .22lr subs or .22lr target shooting. Anyone saying there are simply has no grasp. There are literally thousands of smallbore clubs and there is no alternative if lead goes for target shooting. BASC never says anything on this. There will be no appetite to regularly rebarrel for the vast majority (which will be necessary to maintain accuracy for match rifles) and as the majority of shooters have small budgets, in many cases using club rifles, that part of the shooting sports can be considered gone. Please Conor explain what the plan is here?

Thanks @Robs

BASC and the other shooting organisations will need to fight for exemptions if these uses of lead ammunition were targeted or caught up in a general ban. It could be argued that these uses cause negligible risks to wildlife, people or the environment.

The focus of the shooting organisations for the last two years has been encouraging a voluntary transition away from the use of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

Meanwhile, in the EU there have been policy developments for various restrictions on lead ammunition for live quarry and target shooting under the EU REACH regulations. And last year a similar process to the one happening in the EU began in the UK under post-Brexit UK REACH regulations.

For the UK REACH regulations process (which is new and looks at lead ammunition and substances in ink tattoos and permanent make-up) the key issue at this stage of the process is whether or not the recreational outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Wales or Scotland causes such a risk to wildlife, people or environment that it warrants restrictions.

The evidenced risks are as follows:

Wildlife

Over 2,000 tonnes of lead ammunition is shot into the UK countryside annually, including many billions of individual pieces of lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Unfortunately, many species of birds pick up this lead shot mistaking it as grit. The lead shot grinds in their acidic gizzards and toxic lead salts are absorbed into the blood stream and find their way into the tissues of vital organs. Death occurs in a few days or weeks depending on how much lead shot a bird eats.

Raptors and bird/mammalian scavengers are also poisoned to varying degrees when they consume carcasses or live prey that contain traces of lead ammunition.

According to the science up to 100,000 birds die in the UK annually as a direct result of poisoning from lead ammunition.

People

I have never heard of cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than just the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye.

Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers' bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance, and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby.

For adults there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer. For lead ammunition the exposure comes from traces of lead ammunition ingested when using firearms and eating lead-contaminated game meat.

Environment

Studies on the impact of lead ammunition on the wider environment (i.e. soil, water, plants) have focused on outdoor shooting ranges where a high concentration of use takes place on relatively small areas of land and that is perceived as a cause for concern.

Heightened lead concentrations in the soils of shooting ranges have found associated risks with elevated lead levels in plants, surface water and groundwater. However, whether or not this subsequently results in elevated lead levels in wildlife, livestock and people is not well understood and requires further research.

Mixed views

On the one hand there are people in the shooting community who despite two years of discussion and information are still in denial that there is any evidence whatsoever of any adverse impact from lead ammunition and that it’s all a conspiracy against shooting.

At the other end of the spectrum are the likes of RSPB, Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust and others who believe that the shooting community is deliberately procrastinating and that the ammunition manufacturers can magically produce non-lead ammunition of every type and quantity needed at the drop of a hat.

The middle ground, as I perceive it, is that most of us are reasonable and accept that some restrictions might be justified but that they should only come into effect when effective and affordable alternatives for our shooting disciplines are available in the volumes required.

I think most of us want to do the right thing but we have valid concerns about finding non-lead alternatives that perform well for our individual shooting interests; that our guns will not be damaged; and for live quarry shooting that the ammunition we use ensures a humane kill.
 
Thanks @Robs

BASC and the other shooting organisations will need to fight for exemptions if these uses of lead ammunition were targeted or caught up in a general ban. It could be argued that these uses cause negligible risks to wildlife, people or the environment.

The focus of the shooting organisations for the last two years has been encouraging a voluntary transition away from the use of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

Meanwhile, in the EU there have been policy developments for various restrictions on lead ammunition for live quarry and target shooting under the EU REACH regulations. And last year a similar process to the one happening in the EU began in the UK under post-Brexit UK REACH regulations.

For the UK REACH regulations process (which is new and looks at lead ammunition and substances in ink tattoos and permanent make-up) the key issue at this stage of the process is whether or not the recreational outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Wales or Scotland causes such a risk to wildlife, people or environment that it warrants restrictions.

The evidenced risks are as follows:

Wildlife

Over 2,000 tonnes of lead ammunition is shot into the UK countryside annually, including many billions of individual pieces of lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Unfortunately, many species of birds pick up this lead shot mistaking it as grit. The lead shot grinds in their acidic gizzards and toxic lead salts are absorbed into the blood stream and find their way into the tissues of vital organs. Death occurs in a few days or weeks depending on how much lead shot a bird eats.

Raptors and bird/mammalian scavengers are also poisoned to varying degrees when they consume carcasses or live prey that contain traces of lead ammunition.

According to the science up to 100,000 birds die in the UK annually as a direct result of poisoning from lead ammunition.

People

I have never heard of cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than just the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye.

Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers' bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance, and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby.

For adults there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer. For lead ammunition the exposure comes from traces of lead ammunition ingested when using firearms and eating lead-contaminated game meat.

Environment

Studies on the impact of lead ammunition on the wider environment (i.e. soil, water, plants) have focused on outdoor shooting ranges where a high concentration of use takes place on relatively small areas of land and that is perceived as a cause for concern.

Heightened lead concentrations in the soils of shooting ranges have found associated risks with elevated lead levels in plants, surface water and groundwater. However, whether or not this subsequently results in elevated lead levels in wildlife, livestock and people is not well understood and requires further research.

Mixed views

On the one hand there are people in the shooting community who despite two years of discussion and information are still in denial that there is any evidence whatsoever of any adverse impact from lead ammunition and that it’s all a conspiracy against shooting.

At the other end of the spectrum are the likes of RSPB, Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust and others who believe that the shooting community is deliberately procrastinating and that the ammunition manufacturers can magically produce non-lead ammunition of every type and quantity needed at the drop of a hat.

The middle ground, as I perceive it, is that most of us are reasonable and accept that some restrictions might be justified but that they should only come into effect when effective and affordable alternatives for our shooting disciplines are available in the volumes required.

I think most of us want to do the right thing but we have valid concerns about finding non-lead alternatives that perform well for our individual shooting interests; that our guns will not be damaged; and for live quarry shooting that the ammunition we use ensures a humane kill.
Conor, you can understand

“At the other end of the spectrum are the likes of RSPB, Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust and others who believe that the shooting community is deliberately procrastinating and that the ammunition manufacturers can magically produce non-lead ammunition of every type and quantity needed at the drop of a hat.”

because the likes of Denmark have done so, but at the expense of single-use plastic pollution, wads.

the combination of non toxic shot and biodegradable wads is far more challenging to a achieve especially at a price all can afford, ie steel shot.

“I think most of us want to do the right thing but we have valid concerns about finding non-lead alternatives that perform well for our individual shooting interests; that our guns will not be damaged; and for live quarry shooting that the ammunition we use ensures a humane kill.”

Shooting interest must include clay pigeon shooting, pricing the sport out of reach of the working class and pensioners will be potentially see a decline in shooting, most juniors will start that way, on .410, 28ga and 20ga.
Sales of game cartridges are small in numbers, for a few mothers of the year, compared to clay pigeon cartridges all year round.

As for the assumption the government cares about human heath for the tiny majority that eat game is hypocritical when they could ban smoking and have a much bigger impact on improving heath.
 
Thanks @Robs

BASC and the other shooting organisations will need to fight for exemptions if these uses of lead ammunition were targeted or caught up in a general ban. It could be argued that these uses cause negligible risks to wildlife, people or the environment.

The focus of the shooting organisations for the last two years has been encouraging a voluntary transition away from the use of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

Meanwhile, in the EU there have been policy developments for various restrictions on lead ammunition for live quarry and target shooting under the EU REACH regulations. And last year a similar process to the one happening in the EU began in the UK under post-Brexit UK REACH regulations.

For the UK REACH regulations process (which is new and looks at lead ammunition and substances in ink tattoos and permanent make-up) the key issue at this stage of the process is whether or not the recreational outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Wales or Scotland causes such a risk to wildlife, people or environment that it warrants restrictions.

The evidenced risks are as follows:

Wildlife

Over 2,000 tonnes of lead ammunition is shot into the UK countryside annually, including many billions of individual pieces of lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Unfortunately, many species of birds pick up this lead shot mistaking it as grit. The lead shot grinds in their acidic gizzards and toxic lead salts are absorbed into the blood stream and find their way into the tissues of vital organs. Death occurs in a few days or weeks depending on how much lead shot a bird eats.

Raptors and bird/mammalian scavengers are also poisoned to varying degrees when they consume carcasses or live prey that contain traces of lead ammunition.

According to the science up to 100,000 birds die in the UK annually as a direct result of poisoning from lead ammunition.

People

I have never heard of cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than just the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye.

Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers' bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance, and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby.

For adults there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer. For lead ammunition the exposure comes from traces of lead ammunition ingested when using firearms and eating lead-contaminated game meat.

Environment

Studies on the impact of lead ammunition on the wider environment (i.e. soil, water, plants) have focused on outdoor shooting ranges where a high concentration of use takes place on relatively small areas of land and that is perceived as a cause for concern.

Heightened lead concentrations in the soils of shooting ranges have found associated risks with elevated lead levels in plants, surface water and groundwater. However, whether or not this subsequently results in elevated lead levels in wildlife, livestock and people is not well understood and requires further research.

Mixed views

On the one hand there are people in the shooting community who despite two years of discussion and information are still in denial that there is any evidence whatsoever of any adverse impact from lead ammunition and that it’s all a conspiracy against shooting.

At the other end of the spectrum are the likes of RSPB, Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust and others who believe that the shooting community is deliberately procrastinating and that the ammunition manufacturers can magically produce non-lead ammunition of every type and quantity needed at the drop of a hat.

The middle ground, as I perceive it, is that most of us are reasonable and accept that some restrictions might be justified but that they should only come into effect when effective and affordable alternatives for our shooting disciplines are available in the volumes required.

I think most of us want to do the right thing but we have valid concerns about finding non-lead alternatives that perform well for our individual shooting interests; that our guns will not be damaged; and for live quarry shooting that the ammunition we use ensures a humane kill.
What have you as an organisation done to evaluate ‘the evidence’ ?
 
What have you as an organisation done to evaluate ‘the evidence’ ?
Frankly, Frank, the argument has moved on. The GWCT's scientists have examined the mounting evidence and support a voluntary move away from lead and single use plastic; who could know better? We need to get organised for a future where lead and plastic wads will inevitably be banned or seriously restricted for most live quarry shooting. Sticking our heads in the sand is not an option.

Live quarry shooting needs to be much less dependent on lead, or it risks having no future at all.
 
Last edited:
Here's my response and I hope a reply to that might be forthcoming?

BASC and the other shooting organisations will need to fight for exemptions if these uses of lead ammunition were targeted or caught up in a general ban.

These MUST include for ALL USES an exclusion for the .410" (as does New Zealand) the small shot cartidges of 9mm Rimfire and the .22 Rimfire. I think it may be easier to maybe have a list of what must use non-lead and in what circumstance and that everything else is allowed to use lead.

SO MY SUGGESTION - SEE LATER - IS ANY GUN OF 12, 16, 20 BORE IN 65MM, 70MM 76MM OR LONGER CHAMBER WITH POST 1954 PROOF MARKS (OR MADE AFTER 1954 IF NOT BEARING BRITISH PROOF) MUST USE NON-LEAD FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOOTING OF XXX TYPE. Elsewise what of the various 12 bore, 14 bore, 16 bore 20 bore and etc. pinfire cartridges and the 14 bore, 24 bore, 32 bore centrefire cartridges.

AND TO STOP ABUSE OF THE CONCESSION NO 2 INCH CHAMBER 12 BORE GUNS NOT ALREADY IN MANUFACTURE BEFORE 31 DECEMBER 2022 WILL BE PERMITTED TO USE LEAD.

I also think it should include an exclusion for weapons made before a certain date....JUST AS LEAD IS ALLOWED IN THE UK FOR THE USE OF CARS MADE BEFORE A CERTAIN DATE. My date suggestion would be guns bearing pre-1954 Proof Marks will be permitted to use lead (save as is presently illegal such as in England and Wales for wildfowl or in Scotland over certain land). Which could easily be proved (literally) by the Proof Marks. And for non-British proofed guns evidence from that nation's proof marks, inspectors' marks, or maker's records or museum or other archive records or by sworn family knowledge (such as a declaration such as a parent had this given to him in 1919 on his twelfth birthday).

And as steel is potentially destructive of the ACTION as well as the BARRELS then a later sleeving of barrels post-1954 must still be subordinated to earlier pre-1954 Proof Marks evidencing that the gun originally when built is of that earlier pre-1954 Proof Mark date manufacture. I belive that this woud satisfy most and potentially avoid the need for Government funded compensation.


Wildlife

According to the science up to 100,000 birds die in the UK annually as a direct result of poisoning from lead ammunition.

Does that 100,000 include birds found dead frozen to death in severe weather, birds struck by turbine blades, birds died of old age or disease and etc., etc.? Just because a carcass has lead shot in its crop is not alone the cause of its demise. Just the same as if I go outside of my house at 8.00am and the pavement is wet it doesn't mean it has rained. It may be that it snowed and the snow has melted. Or that the street has been washed!

People

I have never heard of cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

If given the facts of the risk then I can make that choice. I am given in the most graphic terms the risk of smoking tobacco. I make that choice. I choose not to smoke but others choose still to smoke. This should be the same with lead shot game and lead shot woodpigeons and etc..

Environment

However, whether or not this subsequently results in elevated lead levels in wildlife, livestock and people is not well understood and requires further research.

BASC said "no evidence = no ban". Yet here you confess that further research is needed. Where does that fit with "no evidence = no ban"?

Mixed views

On the one hand there are people in the shooting community who despite two years of discussion and information are still in denial that there is any evidence whatsoever of any adverse impact from lead ammunition and that it’s all a conspiracy against shooting.

Nobody sane denies that lead is poisonous. But the fact is that this is a convenient feature of the properties of lead that has been made into a benefit for those who seek to ban shooting. If BASC thinks so it is mere "Danegeld".

Have no doubt when lead goes our sport will not be left alone. It will still be attacked and if not on grounds of single use plastic shotshells and shotshell wads then on other grounds.

Lead in petrol is not the same form as lead in shot. Lead in paint is not in the same form as lead in shot. But the opposition of Wild Justice is of the same undiluted form.


I think most of us want to do the right thing but we have valid concerns about finding non-lead alternatives that perform well for our individual shooting interests; that our guns will not be damaged; and for live quarry shooting that the ammunition we use ensures a humane kill.

And in small bores as ALL the alternatives are lighter mass than lead that will mean reduced pellet count which will mean less effective patterns even at reasonable for that calibre ranges. Simply it will make clean humane kills a matter of luck with the small bores.

Lastly there is still a huge suspicion that this all too conveniently "fits" with BASC's £250,000 to the British Game Alliance and the campaign to justify big bags by saying what is shot enters the food chain. And to do that BASC to ensure the success of the BGA have made this volte face. So what input have BGA and BASC's investment into the BGA had into the decision making process of this call for a lead shot ban?
 
Last edited:
I also add this in relation to a pre-1954 exemption.

I believe that this would satisfy most and potentially avoid the need for Government funded compensation. Especially if this concession is allowed only to those who owned such guns before 31 December 2022 or who had entered into contracts before 31 December 2022 to purchase such guns such as by auction of at by sale at distance. This device was used in relation to compensation in the 1996 Firearms Act but here would be used not for compensation but for the lead use concession. And eventually as their owners died or sold those pre-1954 guns this "cohort" would self extinguish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kes
Here is some very interesting reading on the amount of game shot over the EU and the effects of lead, the amount of game shot is staggering.
file:///C:/Users/Fujitsu/Downloads/Setting_maximum_levels_for_lead_in_game_meat_in_EC.pdf
 
Enfieldspares the problem is policing any exemption which allow lead shot to continue to be a choice.

They are also unlikely to care about continued use of old guns e.g muzzle loaders, pin fire, non steel proofed guns, the attitude being if you want to continue to shoot then buy a new fit for purpose gun, as the goal of saving the environment, people, birds is what matters.

The cost to jobs of a total lead ban, in manufacturing, retail, game shoots and clay grounds could be significant not just in the U.K. but EU also. But then was that not the agenda all along for the likes of WJ.
 
Back
Top