The 'Lead Free' lie

[shakey jake]

People forget we all had lead water pipes

had. any water companies still installing lead?

 

[Ryan Malcolm]

had. any water companies still installing lead?

No but there is plenty of houses with them still in. It’s all plastic now.

 

[Smellydog]

No but there is plenty of houses with them still in. It’s all plastic now.

Yeah, and we all know how much better for the environment plastic is

 

[Sakoodin1]

What weight Barnes are you using in the .22-250 and what is your rifle twist rate if you don’t mind me asking.
Thanks!

Hi there, mine is a 1-8” sassen 26” and I am using 55grn Barnes ttsx

 

[A Guy Out West]

Some range personnel and police instructors in Berlin, Germany claim to have taken long-term damage from inhaling lead contaminated fumes over an extended period of time. This went as far that there was no range training for the police for some time. I cannot say if they could ever prove their case. I didn't follow it up.

I should have clarified “show me the person that has been harmed while shooting out of doors”. Indoor ranges have long been known for potential lead problems, and other issues.

 

[Steff]

I should have clarified “show me the person that has been harmed while shooting out of doors”. Indoor ranges have long been known for potential lead problems, and other issues.

These were only partialy roofed outdoor ranges.

 

[bluesako]

People forget we all had lead water pipes

and half of the uk is still using and drinking water from old lead pipes as i mentioned earlier in this thread bs

 

[enfieldspares]

Some range personnel and police instructors in Berlin, Germany claim to have taken long-term damage from inhaling lead contaminated fumes over an extended period of time. This went as far that there was no range training for the police for some time. I cannot say if they could ever prove their case. I didn't follow it up.

And a lot in the USA where most urban police forces train on indoor ranges. I know that in the UK the man that ran a shooting centre in the Midlands had raised levels of lead in his blood.

 

[shakey jake]

when i was building every lead water pipe i removed or replaced had a layer of lime scale on the inside. i think comparring lead water pipes with the particles of lead in a carcase a bit daft.
loads of farm buildings are still built of asbestos should we be arguing that we should still use this with its known health risk?

 

[griff]

I, like some of you was totally against copper, I didn't want to change, but having been forced to change 9 years ago, I can honestly say it is better than lead, it produces a far superior carcass, it is accurate, but it does have it limitations at range..
I try to keep all my shots under 400yds not because that is the limit of my capability, but in my opinion that is the limit of that particular bullet I use in terms of both expansion and energy.

Between the person I work with and one other contractor we are currently in excess of 2000 deer per annum, so I think I have fair to middling experience when it comes to copper, it works, just change the point of impact. Incidentally I lost my first deer last month using copper, still to this day don't know what happened.
I'm happy those percentages.

If you dont want to change, then don't, I know its not fair, just like its not fair that I have to have all these pieces of paper saying I can now do this and that, when in the past we just got on with it(and by the way they are not cheap), but that is not the environment we are living in today..

My contract comes to an end on 31st May and I will be giving up and going on to new pastures, but I will not be going back to lead thats for sure..

 

[Heym SR20]

I, like some of you was totally against copper, I didn't want to change, but having been forced to change 9 years ago, I can honestly say it is better than lead, it produces a far superior carcass, it is accurate, but it does have it limitations at range..
I try to keep all my shots under 400yds not because that is the limit of my capability, but in my opinion that is the limit of that particular bullet I use in terms of both expansion and energy.

Between the person I work with and one other contractor we are currently in excess of 2000 deer per annum, so I think I have fair to middling experience when it comes to copper, it works, just change the point of impact. Incidentally I lost my first deer last month using copper, still to this day don't know what happened.
I'm happy those percentages.

If you dont want to change, then don't, I know its not fair, just like its not fair that I have to have all these pieces of paper saying I can now do this and that, when in the past we just got on with it(and by the way they are not cheap), but that is not the environment we are living in today..

My contract comes to an end on 31st May and I will be giving up and going on to new pastures, but I will not be going back to lead thats for sure..

Just out of interest what cartridge and bullet are using, and your preferred point of impact.

I am in no ways shooting similar numbers of deer, but I too not going back to lead for shooting live quarry.

 

[griff]

Just out of interest what cartridge and bullet are using, and your preferred point of impact.

I am in no ways shooting similar numbers of deer, but I too not going back to lead for shooting live quarry.

My main rifle was a custom 264Winnie, but after being forced onto copper went up a caliber to 7mm with a RMag just to increase the frontal area, my thought was a larger area would increase the resistance upon impact thus making the bullet open up. Ran the Rem-mag for about two years then went onto a 280AI, nothing wrong with the caliber just too expensive to run. 30-06 came next that was what I used for the last 5 years, just recently moved on to a 7mm-08.
Tried several bullet manufacturers Barnes Hornady Nosler Peregrine Fox etc
Settled on a 110gn GMX in the 30-06 @ around 3450fps, they are tough and definitely imo not to be used beyond 350yds. Used the 139lrx's in the RM, they are considerably softer than the TTSX and GMX and were doing about the same speed as the little 110gn gmx in the 30-06,no point in saying at what range I used them to as it will rile the keyboard warriors.
Point of impact was high shoulders,break both shoulder blades they are not going anywhere.
I would like say that shooting big reds with the 30-06 needed a heavier bullet, I found quite a few chewed copper rounds just under the skin on more than one occasion. My experience of bullet weight retention seems to differ from the run of mill comments I seem to read and the claims of the bullet manufacturers, I do have one somewhere(I will take a pic) of a 110gn GMX shot into a 75kg hind through the shoulder blades stuck in the skin on the opposite side, weight 27gn, had quite a few that have shed a tremendous percentage of their original weight..
Neck shot stag with the RM and didn't get an exit...
This game always seem to throw a spanner in the works of what is normal..

 

[Heym SR20]

My main rifle was a custom 264Winnie, but after being forced onto copper went up a caliber to 7mm with a RMag just to increase the frontal area, my thought was a larger area would increase the resistance upon impact thus making the bullet open up. Ran the Rem-mag for about two years then went onto a 280AI, nothing wrong with the caliber just too expensive to run. 30-06 came next that was what I used for the last 5 years, just recently moved on to a 7mm-08.
Tried several bullet manufacturers Barnes Hornady Nosler Peregrine Fox etc
Settled on a 110gn GMX in the 30-06 @ around 3450fps, they are tough and definitely imo not to be used beyond 350yds. Used the 139lrx's in the RM, they are considerably softer than the TTSX and GMX and were doing about the same speed as the little 110gn gmx in the 30-06,no point in saying at what range I used them to as it will rile the keyboard warriors.
Point of impact was high shoulders,break both shoulder blades they are not going anywhere.
I would like say that shooting big reds with the 30-06 needed a heavier bullet, I found quite a few chewed copper rounds just under the skin on more than one occasion. My experience of bullet weight retention seems to differ from the run of mill comments I seem to read and the claims of the bullet manufacturers, I do have one somewhere(I will take a pic) of a 110gn GMX shot into a 75kg hind through the shoulder blades stuck in the skin on the opposite side, weight 27gn, had quite a few that have shed a tremendous percentage of their original weight..
Neck shot stag with the RM and didn't get an exit...
This game always seem to throw a spanner in the works of what is normal..

Thanks - and did you get any negative feedback from game dealers from high shoulder shot position?

I have plenty of experience of roe and hinds, but only a few red stags. What always amazes me about Red Stags is how big and tough they are compared to hinds and roe. You really notice this when gralloching in particular removing the pluck - it’s not a question of simply of grabbing hold of the wind pipe and pulling!

 

[User00040]

What always amazes me about Red Stags is how big and tough they are compared to hinds and roe.

No UK deer is tough to kill, people make up excuses due to poor shot placement or bullet choice (usually misguided use of too heavy for calibre bullets).

Won't give further details but stags over 100kg have been killed with .22LR's... and not in a park either... they used lead rounds though

 

[griff]

Thanks - and did you get any negative feedback from game dealers from high shoulder shot position?

I have plenty of experience of roe and hinds, but only a few red stags. What always amazes me about Red Stags is how big and tough they are compared to hinds and roe. You really notice this when gralloching in particular removing the pluck - it’s not a question of simply of grabbing hold of the wind pipe and pulling!

We dont deal with the gamedealer everything belongs FC(FLS now).

 

[Sharpie]

when i was building every lead water pipe i removed or replaced had a layer of lime scale on the inside. i think comparring lead water pipes with the particles of lead in a carcase a bit daft.
loads of farm buildings are still built of asbestos should we be arguing that we should still use this with its known health risk?

This is broadly correct. However in some parts, e.g. of Scotland using delicious peaty surface water it is so soft and mildly acidic that limescale does not protect us from the lead. In such areas all old lead pipework has been or is being removed.

Just as our plumbing fittings must nowadays be made from WRAS approved brass, with low lead content and formulated to not leach what little is in it into our water.

There is hard science behind such matters, just as the balance weights for our wheels must no longer contain lead. Nor the brake pads and clutch linings contain asbestos. Quite what happens to the rubber particles worn from our tyres in vast amounts is actually a subject of interest, but it's hard to imagine a practical solution to that real problem.

Why "disposable" nappies, baby wipes, cotton buds and so on are reformulated to biodegrade.

Why we nowadays have recycling bins. And try to minimise "landfill".

Why water sometimes has fluoride added to it. Why white flour, and breakfast cereals have niacin, thiamine and so on added. Table salt has iodine added. Why in some areas ventilation is installed in buildings to reduce radon gas buildup from the granite stones.

Why flue gas desulphurisation was installed on our coal fired power stations. Acid rain was denied for so many years, even now parts of Scotland are still slowly recovering from that contamination. As well as other countries downwind of us.

Why our nuclear waste treatment plants no longer dispose of low level waste by flushing it into the Irish Sea through a pipeline.

Why the scandal of how nuclear waste was disposed of at Dounreay is such an ongoing challenge, There are still beaches that are not entirely safe to walk on.

Why, in the aftermath of Chernobyl, our Cumbrian hill farmers had to have their sheep monitored and where necessary rested in uncontaminated regions before being sold. Of course, prior to that was the Windscale fire, only saved because a very prescient engineer/physicist had installed "Cockcroft's Follies"

Why one is advised to never drink water from the hot tap. Because, if you have ever replaced a copper hot water cylinder and seen the blue copper poison inside, you would have to be stupid to even consider it.

Why "Bordeaux Mixture" has been banned as a fungicide in most of the EU, and UK.

Why our refrigerants no longer contain freon-type chemicals, or at least not so much.

Why the "food safe" plastics used for food, drink and plumbing no longer contain phthalates as a plasticiser.

Why certain chemicals used in shooting powders have been banned under REACH legislation.

Why DDT was long ago banned. After "The Silent Spring"

Why glyphosate is no longer sold to the domestic user. Nor "Agent Orange" used in war. And dioxins are a dirty word nowadays.

Why you can't buy decent rat poison easily. Nor the things that used to be a routine part of a gamekeeper's work.

These are matters of fact, not really something arguable.

Just as those of us who eat a lot of fish, and other seafood, should be aware of the potential hazards from heavy metals, such as mercury for example, in tuna. Or even what goes into farmed salmon, and other farmed fishes.

Why we have a food standards agency. Why management of Public Health is a vital part of society.

The concern about lead contamination in lead shot wild game is quite genuine. It is of little concern to almost all of the general public, who do not eat it in quantity, or even at all. So it has not been the subject of much scrutiny or regulation, until recent times. However some of us do eat much more than that (I certainly do), and even feed it to children, or pregnant women.

Or leave it in the carcasses of vermin or grallochs of deer, to be disposed of into nature by carrion eaters, concentrated up that food chain to the top, the raptors.

It is increasingly unnecessary to do so. At the moment it's still a personal choice, but I for one have not shot lead in a shotgun for over 15 years, a personal decision back then. For my limited recreational stalking I mostly use the estate rifle and shoot with whatever the guide supplies. But I would prefer it not to be lead, in a perfect world. I, or my friends and family eat everything that I kill. I am not a contractor, nor a "deer manager" nor do I supply to AGHEs.

BTW, I do cast my own lead bullets for use on the indoor range, and sometimes outdoors as well but am very aware of the hazards, which affect nobody but me, and my fellow shooters.

I also experimented with wearing a copper bangle for my rheumatism, unsurprisingly it didn't seem to help, but plenty of others swear by them.

I do take a dietary supplement which contains the recommended daily allowance of copper, amongst other minerals and vitamins, not because I need to, but as a precaution. A little bit of it is necessary for human, and animal, health.

Nor, at least I think, should we be clinging on to lead, simply for misty eyed nostalgic reasons.

 

[griff]

Just out of interest what cartridge and bullet are using, and your preferred point of impact.

I am in no ways shooting similar numbers of deer, but I too not going back to lead for shooting live quarry.

Some pics of recovered copper bullets L/R 30-06 125gn GMX shot into sand @ 600yds. 125gn GMX recovered from neck of 100kg staggie. 270 130gn Barnes recovered from same sand @600yds. 110gn GMX recovered from 75kg Hind @ 75yds total recovered weight 27gn..

 

[griff]

This is broadly correct. However in some parts, e.g. of Scotland using delicious peaty surface water it is so soft and mildly acidic that limescale does not protect us from the lead. In such areas all old lead pipework has been or is being removed.

Just as our plumbing fittings must nowadays be made from WRAS approved brass, with low lead content and formulated to not leach what little is in it into our water.

There is hard science behind such matters, just as the balance weights for our wheels must no longer contain lead. Nor the brake pads and clutch linings contain asbestos. Quite what happens to the rubber particles worn from our tyres in vast amounts is actually a subject of interest, but it's hard to imagine a practical solution to that real problem.

Why "disposable" nappies, baby wipes, cotton buds and so on are reformulated to biodegrade.

Why we nowadays have recycling bins. And try to minimise "landfill".

Why water sometimes has fluoride added to it. Why white flour, and breakfast cereals have niacin, thiamine and so on added. Table salt has iodine added. Why in some areas ventilation is installed in buildings to reduce radon gas buildup from the granite stones.

Why flue gas desulphurisation was installed on our coal fired power stations. Acid rain was denied for so many years, even now parts of Scotland are still slowly recovering from that contamination. As well as other countries downwind of us.

Why our nuclear waste treatment plants no longer dispose of low level waste by flushing it into the Irish Sea through a pipeline.

Why the scandal of how nuclear waste was disposed of at Dounreay is such an ongoing challenge, There are still beaches that are not entirely safe to walk on.

Why, in the aftermath of Chernobyl, our Cumbrian hill farmers had to have their sheep monitored and where necessary rested in uncontaminated regions before being sold. Of course, prior to that was the Windscale fire, only saved because a very prescient engineer/physicist had installed "Cockcroft's Follies"

Why one is advised to never drink water from the hot tap. Because, if you have ever replaced a copper hot water cylinder and seen the blue copper poison inside, you would have to be stupid to even consider it.

Why "Bordeaux Mixture" has been banned as a fungicide in most of the EU, and UK.

Why our refrigerants no longer contain freon-type chemicals, or at least not so much.

Why the "food safe" plastics used for food, drink and plumbing no longer contain phthalates as a plasticiser.

Why certain chemicals used in shooting powders have been banned under REACH legislation.

Why DDT was long ago banned. After "The Silent Spring"

Why glyphosate is no longer sold to the domestic user. Nor "Agent Orange" used in war. And dioxins are a dirty word nowadays.

Why you can't buy decent rat poison easily. Nor the things that used to be a routine part of a gamekeeper's work.

These are matters of fact, not really something arguable.

Just as those of us who eat a lot of fish, and other seafood, should be aware of the potential hazards from heavy metals, such as mercury for example, in tuna. Or even what goes into farmed salmon, and other farmed fishes.

Why we have a food standards agency. Why management of Public Health is a vital part of society.

The concern about lead contamination in lead shot wild game is quite genuine. It is of little concern to almost all of the general public, who do not eat it in quantity, or even at all. So it has not been the subject of much scrutiny or regulation, until recent times. However some of us do eat much more than that (I certainly do), and even feed it to children, or pregnant women.

Or leave it in the carcasses of vermin or grallochs of deer, to be disposed of into nature by carrion eaters, concentrated up that food chain to the top, the raptors.

It is increasingly unnecessary to do so. At the moment it's still a personal choice, but I for one have not shot lead in a shotgun for over 15 years, a personal decision back then. For my limited recreational stalking I mostly use the estate rifle and shoot with whatever the guide supplies. But I would prefer it not to be lead, in a perfect world. I, or my friends and family eat everything that I kill. I am not a contractor, nor a "deer manager" nor do I supply to AGHEs.

BTW, I do cast my own lead bullets for use on the indoor range, and sometimes outdoors as well but am very aware of the hazards, which affect nobody but me, and my fellow shooters.

I also experimented with wearing a copper bangle for my rheumatism, unsurprisingly it didn't seem to help, but plenty of others swear by them.

I do take a dietary supplement which contains the recommended daily allowance of copper, amongst other minerals and vitamins, not because I need to, but as a precaution. A little bit of it is necessary for human, and animal, health.

Nor, at least I think, should we be clinging on to lead, simply for misty eyed nostalgic reasons.

Nor, at least I think, should we be clinging on to lead, simply for misty eyed nostalgic reasons.

Very well put, if there is a better product out there why would you not use it, just beggars belief!

 

[Heym SR20]

No UK deer is tough to kill, people make up excuses due to poor shot placement or bullet choice (usually misguided use of too heavy for calibre bullets).

Won't give further details but stags over 100kg have been killed with .22LR's... and not in a park either... they used lead rounds though

And in Zim we used 22lr to shoot big steers as well. And wasn’t saying that Red Stags are tough to kill with bullets in the right place but they are big tough animals and like any animal bullets in the wrong place they can go a long way.

 

[enfieldspares]

There is hard science behind such matters, just as the balance weights for our wheels must no longer contain lead. Nor the brake pads and clutch linings contain asbestos. Quite what happens to the rubber particles worn from our tyres in vast amounts is actually a subject of interest, but it's hard to imagine a practical solution to that real problem.

The concern about lead contamination in lead shot wild game is quite genuine. It is of little concern to almost all of the general public, who do not eat it in quantity, or even at all. So it has not been the subject of much scrutiny or regulation, until recent times.

Nor, at least I think, should we be clinging on to lead, simply for misty eyed nostalgic reasons.

Correct on all three. But I use lead not for nostalgia but because it is better.

And linotype is no longer much used yet even though they handled type every day with naked fingers there appears to have never been any reported incidents of typesetters or printers succumbing to lead illnesses. Linotype now has mostly gone as with WYSIWYG ink jet printing it's old technology and inefficient. So it went as what replaced it was better, cheaper, more efficient. A genuine advantage over the "old tech".

Lead shot in shotgun cartridges however whilst old technology is efficient for many reasons...it softer than the barrels it travels along yet at the same time hard enough to kill the quarry it is aimed at. It is not a scarce metal so we are not firing into the air bsimuth which is a scarce metal and lead is therefore cheap and more importantly cheaper to produce than steel shot. Which is why "old tech" as it is there is still no better more useful alternative.

Gold would in its characteristics substitute for lead shot very well except for cost.