Fishtailed fallow bucks

[samdk]

Regarding your second part of the reply How long ago since the Apex predators where in the UK taking deer?

I was under the impression we shot deer to put them into the food chain not just because they have a good set of antlers as you never see a post of good money spent on shooting a doe then having her sent off to the taxidermist to go on the wall.

The thing is people spend time " managing " them, then they move into next doors beans/rape/wheat and he calls in a team an shoots them.
Yes they are nice to see but a fallow with a nice head eats just as much as the one with a poor head, the does eat just as much.

I believe wolves were extinct by the 15th century.

Shooting high quality bucks should be a luxury afforded by good deer management. Ideally you should only take them when they are starting to go back and lose condition as that is when their sperm quality drops off.

I agree, my point is if everyone follows the same plan we would all benefit in the long run and so would the deer. There are to many clueless or selfish stalkers taking good bucks that should be left to breed and shooting next to no does to bring numbers down!

 

[samdk]

If "stalkers" followed natural selection they'd leave murder bucks as surely they are the most succesful male by killing their rivals?


Personally I find managing deer of any species based on their antlers ridiculous.

You are assuming a murder buck would kill all the other better quality males, this is unlikely! It may also have poor body condition that would make it susceptible to predation and the antlers would undoubtably make it less desirable to females and unlikely to father many young.
Thousands of years of evolution without human management prove this.

It is not ridiculous to select on antlers but it should not be the only consideration as there are other factors.

 

[Tim.243]

I believe wolves were extinct by the 15th century.

Shooting high quality bucks should be a luxury afforded by good deer management. Ideally you should only take them when they are starting to go back and lose condition as that is when their sperm quality drops off.

I agree, my point is if everyone follows the same plan we would all benefit in the long run and so would the deer. There are to many clueless or selfish stalkers taking good bucks that should be left to breed and shooting next to no does to bring numbers down!

Fine but what happens when your well managed deer get in next doors wheat which at the moment is around £ 350/400 a ton also rape close to 800...? There is nothing clueless about crops being eaten also with nitrogen in 1k per ton
These things the " managers of good heads" will be turning up the radio shouting la la la in their new 40k truck lol

Next year we could well need every scrap of ground as the knock on from the wheat production in the East could be tough....

Farms will stand some over grazing but come pre harvest with dry rape and beans waiting they even spray a form of glue on rape to keep it in the pod let alone a heard of deer in it. Have you that in you action plan?

 

[samdk]

Fine but what happens when your well managed deer get in next doors wheat which at the moment is around £ 350/400 a ton also rape close to 800...? There is nothing clueless about crops being eaten also with nitrogen in 1k per ton
These things the " managers of good heads" will be turning up the radio shouting la la la in their new 40k truck lol

Next year we could well need every scrap of ground as the knock on from the wheat production in the East could be tough....

Farms will stand some over grazing but come pre harvest with dry rape and beans waiting they even spray a form of glue on rape to keep it in the pod let alone a heard of deer in it. Have you that in you action plan?

Both sides of my family own farms and have farmed as far back as my family tree goes so I’m very much aware of the issue of crop damage by deer and feel the pain of profits being eaten!

I don’t think leaving good quality bucks will result in more or less crop damage that falls down to population size and the population being managed accordingly.

If the population is small or large it can still be of good quality, even if big numbers need to be culled this can still be done in a way that will improve the quality of the deer.

 

[VSS]

If the population is small or large it can still be of good quality, even if big numbers need to be culled this can still be done in a way that will improve the quality of the deer.

If big numbers need to be culled to get the population under control, it's got to be primarily females. In the absence of antlers to use as a guide, does the average recreational stalker have the knowledge to select females by quality? You might have, with your background in farming which ought to have given you a good eye for stock, but I suspect most wouldn't know the difference between a poor doer and a good rearer - both would look pretty ragged. And there isn't much time for decision making when you're trying to drop as many as possible as fast as possible from a group of hinds / does. In fact, the selection criteria is more likely to be based on which ones present the safest shots!
But the flip side of the coin is that once the population is reduced then quality ought to build, partly through better nutrition and partly because the stalker can then take the time to be more selective.

 

[Tim.243]

Both sides of my family own farms and have farmed as far back as my family tree goes so I’m very much aware of the issue of crop damage by deer and feel the pain of profits being eaten!

I don’t think leaving good quality bucks will result in more or less crop damage that falls down to population size and the population being managed accordingly.

If the population is small or large it can still be of good quality, even if big numbers need to be culled this can still be done in a way that will improve the quality of the deer.

Yes however the does also the poor heads eat just as much of your crops regardless of head quality.

What are you getting for wheat at the moment?

 

[DK.260]

Fine but what happens when your well managed deer get in next doors wheat which at the moment is around £ 350/400 a ton also rape close to 800...? There is nothing clueless about crops being eaten also with nitrogen in 1k per ton
These things the " managers of good heads" will be turning up the radio shouting la la la in their new 40k truck lol

Next year we could well need every scrap of ground as the knock on from the wheat production in the East could be to
Farms will stand some over grazing but come pre harvest with dry rape and beans waiting they even spray a form of glue on rape to keep it in the pod let alone a heard of deer in it. Have you that in you action plan?

Apologies to Op for taking this off track a wee bit......

And this is a debate that folk need to have with landowners and should bear in mind before they take on any ground or if their circumstances change.
Every few years I move to a different part of the country and have managed herding species in the South East of England, Scotland and now East Anglia. These areas present differing requirements and one size really doesn't fit all.

In Scotland a very heavy cull was needed over a couple of years (everything got the good news) ahead of forest re-gen.

In the South east with mature amenity woodland with almost zero agricultural interests. The deer are part of the eco structure of established woodland and SSSI lowland heath, the designated area was in unfavourable condition due to over grazing. So, quite a heavy reduction of females and less than decent bucks was undertaken. Once the unfavourable turned to favourable a maintenance cull was set using current numbers as a general baseline, if the designation looked like it was heading to unfavourable due to vegetation succession and woodland encroachment the cull was re-appraised and the cull numbers lowered. In this situation the big bucks are actually helpful and the herd looks better for it. If the cull pressure or just a presence is maintained on the ground the big groups will move (yes, maybe onto neighbouring land) but this works both ways when your neighbour starts thinning them out as well.

I am now based in Essex and have just taken on a farm in East Anglia which has arable interests and a population of Red, CWD, Fallow and is jumping with Muntjac, the neighbouring land use is a vast swathe of herbs and veg.....here it is zero tolerance to anything that resembles a deer. As you allude to @Tim.243, human occupation and land use should always come first and there is no point having a permission if you are bankrupting the farmer.

It may sound like a bit of a ball ache but I can't emphasise the importance of a deer plan (even on a fag packet) should be agreed with a land owner to understand their needs before squeezing the trigger. This way everyone is on the same page and if a stalker or "deer manager" can't fulfil this need (whether its a zero tolerance approach or a maintenance plan)......maybe they need to look for some different ground.

 

[sikamalc]

Any apex predator that would take a Fallow buck was already extinct or almost extinct in the UK by the time Fallow were established in the wild.

Fish tailed bucks are not uncommon in many areas. Fallow are possibly one of the most miss managed species of deer in the UK. Most big bucks, or ones that show potential are shot on sight. Mainly I believe because of most stalkers trying to keep Fallow numbers in check, which is a task that is almost impossible in my opinion. Plus Fallow are nomadic and therefore if its on my ground its going to get shot, syndrome, or its a small area and the opportunity needs to be taken whilst its there, otherwise the landowner will complain.

There are many reasons. But genetics plays a part in my opinion, and most large palmed bucks are shot on sight. You need a vast area to even attempt to manage Fallow, they move about too much, that's one of the reasons they are so successful as a species. Plus they are very good at finding an area where they are safe and sound and don't get hunted.

We shot in excess of 80 Fallow last year in West Sussex. Most bucks are fish tailed. However from time to time I do see a whooper of a buck head wise. But have up to now left them. This is usually during the rut period.
Weight wise we get some heavy beasts at times. However to find a good medal Fallow buck in the wild these days is not an easy achievement.

 

[Tim.243]

Apologies to Op for taking this off track a wee bit......

And this is a debate that folk need to have with landowners and should bear in mind before they take on any ground or if their circumstances change.
Every few years I move to a different part of the country and have managed herding species in the South East of England, Scotland and now East Anglia. These areas present differing requirements and one size really doesn't fit all.

In Scotland a very heavy cull was needed over a couple of years (everything got the good news) ahead of forest re-gen.

In the South east with mature amenity woodland with almost zero agricultural interests. The deer are part of the eco structure of established woodland and SSSI lowland heath, the designated area was in unfavourable condition due to over grazing. So, quite a heavy reduction of females and less than decent bucks was undertaken. Once the unfavourable turned to favourable a maintenance cull was set using current numbers as a general baseline, if the designation looked like it was heading to unfavourable due to vegetation succession and woodland encroachment the cull was re-appraised and the cull numbers lowered. In this situation the big bucks are actually helpful and the herd looks better for it. If the cull pressure or just a presence is maintained on the ground the big groups will move (yes, maybe onto neighbouring land) but this works both ways when your neighbour starts thinning them out as well.

I am now based in Essex and have just taken on a farm in East Anglia which has arable interests and a population of Red, CWD, Fallow and is jumping with Muntjac, the neighbouring land use is a vast swathe of herbs and veg.....here it is zero tolerance to anything that resembles a deer. As you allude to @Tim.243, human occupation and land use should always come first and there is no point having a permission if you are bankrupting the farmer.

It may sound like a bit of a ball ache but I can't emphasise the importance of a deer plan (even on a fag packet) should be agreed with a land owner to understand their needs before squeezing the trigger. This way everyone is on the same page and if a stalker or "deer manager" can't fulfil this need (whether its a zero tolerance approach or a maintenance plan)......maybe they need to look for some different ground.

Good piece also much better spelling than mine!!

One farm I have my first contact was with the son who sorted out the paperwork, however I wanted to meet his parents as I deal with a lot of farms repairing broken kit so often the Dad will call or used to drop the cheques in as they were passing (old style signed by 2 people)
I asked (mainly muntjac) what was he wanted done with them. " Shoot all you can please"

Other farms I have seen deer numbers so asked " the wife likes to see them" but then a text " can you come shoot this fox as it took 3 of her chickens" then there are hundreds of pigeons can you come please.

Others come with the telly handler as they want them cleaned out by a muck heap.

You can see the white trails of open rape/been pods like spaghetti junction know was it a good/poor head or does...
We don't know...lol

As Russ had no copywrite on his picture...... @Fishboy

 

[Ratel]

We have a transient herd moving between two estates, two farms and FC woodland. When venison was good in price only big heavy bucks were shot on one estate and the two farms.
We have never yet shot a good antlered buck apart from one injured lad.
All I do is try to get as many does on the book as I can because only the FC seem to shoot them.
Shooting mainly prickets with caramelised heads and poor sorrels our cull is now 90 percent does and will continue as such as long as I have the say. Both myself and my young chap are capable of assessing which does and fawns need to go to keep quality, if only the other places would have same idea.

 

[foxdropper]

If you look abroad on these big commercial forest areas where the deer are not only fed but regularly driven ,the heads all appear even and palmated so to me it says either we have overall bad genetics or the browse isn’t sufficient to support good antler growth alone .
We have moved on from being the apex predator and now want to “manage “deer for the so called betterment of the species when in fact what we are doing is trying to manage for our own perception of what looks good .
Whenever I’ve watched fallow rutting ,fish tailed or not ,big palmation or spindly tops ,what wins fights is body size and stamina .
Our area ,much same as most of the uk dosnt have many palmated bucks so consequently not many are shot but by the same token ,concentrating on the fish tails dosnt seem to bring on a better antler arrangement .
Caramelised heads however are a must to cull .
I think we are resigned to having poor overall heads in wild fallow with the odd exception bringing in revenue .

 

[StephenToast]

If you look abroad on these big commercial forest areas where the deer are not only fed but regularly driven ,the heads all appear even and palmated so to me it says either we have overall bad genetics or the browse isn’t sufficient to support good antler growth alone .
We have moved on from being the apex predator and now want to “manage “deer for the so called betterment of the species when in fact what we are doing is trying to manage for our own perception of what looks good .
Whenever I’ve watched fallow rutting ,fish tailed or not ,big palmation or spindly tops ,what wins fights is body size and stamina .
Our area ,much same as most of the uk dosnt have many palmated bucks so consequently not many are shot but by the same token ,concentrating on the fish tails dosnt seem to bring on a better antler arrangement .
Caramelised heads however are a must to cull .
I think we are resigned to having poor overall heads in wild fallow with the odd exception bringing in revenue .

I've never heard the term "caramelised" What do you mean by that?

 

[JeffreyL]

Its a sad fact that size and conformation only gets me £1 a Kg while a big mature set of antlers might push the price into a far higher bracket.

And there in a nutshell is one of the problems with deer ‘management’ today. Populations will never be reduced whilst there is a financial incentive not to. Beware a SNH policy being implemented by DEFRA

 

[Ratel]

I've never heard the term "caramelised" What do you mean by that?

When you get a buck (usually prickets with us) that has two antler knobs which look as if they have been melted down.

 

[baguio]

If you look abroad on these big commercial forest areas where the deer are not only fed but regularly driven ,the heads all appear even and palmated so to me it says either we have overall bad genetics or the browse isn’t sufficient to support good antler growth alone .

That, I believe is because all the non palmated genes have been shot out. The heads and bodies do still get big if they're allowed to get old enough, as do the reds which appear to be managed better by some.
Look at elephants in highly poached areas. The number of elephant with no tusks is much higher now because the females with tusks got shot!

 

[Tim.243]

I've never heard the term "caramelised" What do you mean by that?

Best picture I have, but it is just a word used to give a description as it could look like this.
However you know how SD likes to differ lol

 

[ib1513]

With the numbers about at the moment, most landowners just want them culling and arent really bothered about the gene. If you can be selective then thats a bonus.

 

[NullMac]

Years of poor management have left a pretty poor gene pool in most areas.

Old wives tale

 

[samdk]

Old wives tale

Please explain why this is a wives tale?

 

[foxdropper]

Years of bad management full stop