Reloading and lead...THIS IS NOT A VEHICLE FOR PERSONAL INSULTS BTW!

[Heym SR20]

Possession will only be part of your problem, where are you going to shoot them?
To use it you’re going to have to find a licensed facility that will accommodate you and your lead projectiles. Thats probably going to be the biggest hurdle. Depending on how onerous the licensing restrictions are, many ranges and grounds may opt to discontinue to permit lead use. It’ll all come down to numbers, if most users of the facility are using non lead alternatives, will it be worth while catering to the lead group?

But many Dangerous Game cartridges are now using monolithics because the both expand like soft points, but give the penetration of a solid. They perform better than lead cartridges.

And Peregrine bullets are made in South Africa.

I know that many who hold big calibre rifles in the UK are restricted from holding any ammunition, or can only acquire to take port of embarkation.

Much bigger challenge is airlines not wanting to carry firearms and if they do then cost of carrying. Looking at many of the American forums, hunters are accepting that using a PHs rifle is often a much easier option.

 

[Liveonce]

Possession will only be part of your problem, where are you going to shoot them?
To use it you’re going to have to find a licensed facility that will accommodate you and your lead projectiles. Thats probably going to be the biggest hurdle. Depending on how onerous the licensing restrictions are, many ranges and grounds may opt to discontinue to permit lead use. It’ll all come down to numbers, if most users of the facility are using non lead alternatives, will it be worth while catering to the lead group?

if you have a range with frequent use, then better not to allow lead, as that would contaminate the reclaimed copper, clean copper which will fetch a good price as scrap.

 

[JTO]

oh a duck hunter rather than a Wildfowler. best he stays on his flight pond and shoot the 200yard high ducks that he hits once in every box of ammo. If he come the right ammo for the target species and pattern tested, he would find that steel nowadays is better than lead was back when it was banned for fowling! and if he tries TSS and could afford it, he would never shoot inferior lead again!

If he hadn't died of asbestosis a few years ago, I am sure, even after reading the full title of the thread, he would have responded to such utter b0££0cks.

 

[Apthorpe]

Not Bismuth, but as a rare-earth metal you can see how it will go, certainly could not call it “sustainable ammunition” and at the price it is it is not a practical replacement for lead.

The perfect storm increasing the cost of a crucial metal

Nickel is essential for batteries and stainless steel but suppliers are struggling to meet demand.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bismuth is much rarer than nickel. There is not one single, significant, bismuth mine in the world. Nearly all of it is a by product from lead production. If we're not producing lead in future, there will also be no real supply of bismuth. The fact that most of what little production there is happens in repressive dictatorships is further cause for caution. Yet idiocy prevails in our bureaucracy, as usual.

 

[Apthorpe]

Stop scaremongering, you are just making it up

That was the message two years ago when people warned that this would follow.

 

[Apthorpe]

If your regulations are based on the EU proposals then the “ sale, use or possession” of lead cartridges or bullets will be banned after the transition date unless theres a specific exemption and since the ban is being introduced on environmental grounds there will be a presumption against granting one.
So post transition date you’ll most likely be forbidden to make or have lead ammo in your possession unless you’ve got an exemption.
If you read through the numerous posts on other threads one of the most common arguments is that theres no alternative to lead for X, Y and Z use. I suspect that we’re going to have to find one in most cases

A large part of the problem is just this. That people will insist on believing that alternatives to lead for X,Y or Z can be wished into existence or produced with a bit of time and effort. They can't because it is scientifically impossible for them to exist.

, a ban riddled with exemptions would be completely ineffective.

True.

Currently missing from the debate is the use of lead fishing weights, the EU proposes to ban these too except for commercial users, any such proposals from your HSE?

Lead fishing weights have been banned for ages here.

 

[Dunwaters]

A large part of the problem is just this. That people will insist on believing that alternatives to lead for X,Y or Z can be wished into existence or produced with a bit of time and effort. They can't because it is scientifically impossible for them to exist.

True.

Lead fishing weights have been banned for ages here.

You’re going to have to work very hard to convince government officials convinced that they are protecting future generations of both wildlife and humans from the health hazards associated with the use of a known neurotoxin, with no safe level of exposure, to grant exemptions to government policy to non essential minority leisure users.
There are alternatives, they may not be very practical but they exist for most uses. We’ve done ourselves no favours by opposing lead substitution and denying the science for the last 3 decades, now we’re going to get a near complete ban rammed down our throats.
The EU position on lead fishing weights is distinctly odd, they are exempting commercial users, but anglers will face a ban. From what I’ve read it applies to all lead weights, both the 1/2Lb + bombs I fling off the Clare rocks and the smaller weights and split shot beloved of the coarse fishing brigade.
So far theres no move to ban lead foil seals on wine bottles, but I suspect that’s just an oversight.

 

[Rewulf]

I don’t see any point in arguing against the science that lead is harmful both in food and in the wider environment.

The science ? There isnt any !
What is the maximum permitted level of lead in the water supply ?
What is the maximum permitted level of lead in the air in the workplace ?

HSE can quantify these figures , and give a vague answer, what it doesnt know , is how much permissable lead is allowed in food ?
And the 'wider environment' what does that even mean ?

BASC bleat that 'around' 100,000 birds die of lead poisoning every year, where has it got those figures ? Its an estimate , based on a small sample. 50 million birds are killed by domestic cats every year, are we banning cats ?
50 million poults are put down every year to be used in game shooting, the vast majority never see a gun pointed at them, and are dead from predation or dont survive the winter, are we going to ban game shooting ? Well we wont need to , because the wider industry will die a natural death with a lead ban.

Some years ago the Scots did a study on the effects of eating lead shot meat, the results were very underwhelming , you have to eat lead shot bird or venison 2 or 3 times a week , without removing the pellets to have any notable effect on lead levels in the body, yet this study is largely buried.

https://www.foodstandards.gov.scot/downloads/Risk_Assessment.pdf

Blood Lead Levels - Test For Lead

UK CLAW regulations and EU directives on medical surveillance of workers' blood lead levels.

www.testforlead.co.uk

HSE - Lead - Health effects from exposure to lead)

Provides information about when you are most at risk from lead.

www.hse.gov.uk

Blood lead level - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lead-shot game

Consuming lead is harmful, health experts advise to minimise lead consumption as much as possible. Anyone who eats lead-shot game should be aware of the risks posed by consuming large amounts of lead, especially children and pregnant women.

www.food.gov.uk

The science behind our advice​

Our advice is based on a study of consumers of wild game, conducted by the FSA in Scotland and published in 2012. We’ve also used existing data on lead levels in these types of food in the UK.

There is no agreed safe level for lead intake. Independent scientific expert groups advise that exposure to lead should be reduced as far as possible.

In 2016 the UK government did a study, using information gleaned from the FSA and the Scottish study, among others, and decided that shooting lead projectiles did NOT pose a significant risk to human health, therefore NO action was required.
4 years later , BASC decided we needed to 'phase out' lead for live quarry shooting, despite no moves from government to ban it.
It made this decision completely off its own back, without ANY consultation, and mostly to serve its own interests.

And here we are facing the worst crisis to effect private shooting of all disciplines yet known.
There is no scientific justification for this..

 

[Liveonce]

You’re going to have to work very hard to convince government officials convinced that they are protecting future generations of both wildlife and humans from the health hazards associated with the use of a known neurotoxin ….

I can think of a much more longer list of health hazards doing more harm to a wider population than lead in ammunition, some the government licence to sell and make money from, so they must be hypocrites. e,g smoking with a warning on the packet that tells you it kills, but they don’t ban them.

 

[Dunwaters]

I can think of a much more longer list of health hazards doing more harm to a wider population than lead in ammunition, some the government licence to sell and make money from, so they must be hypocrites. e,g smoking with a warning on the packet that tells you it kills, but they don’t ban them.

You’re right, but the government’s not trying to ban them yet.
Concentrate on the lead ban, all that other stuff is just a distraction.

 

[Rewulf]

You’re right, but the government’s not trying to ban them yet.
Concentrate on the lead ban, all that other stuff is just a distraction.

Wait until a raptor in outer Mongolia gets suspected copper poisoning , so REACH goes for copper projectiles too.
Or bismuth and steel bb can't be produced in quantity.

' First they came for lead shot, but I said nothing.....'

 

[hendrix's rifle]

My question is if/when this comes in to play - will the price of lead free come down?
For anyone that says lead free is cheap or as cheap as premium bullets, don't lie...
Barnes LRX in .264, 127g comes in at £62.99 for 50. That's expensive in itself. The equivalent to that as far as I'm concerned is for example the hornady eld m, 147g in .264. These come in at £47.99... for 100. Not 50. That would be £24 for 50 of them. There in NO comparison in cost in the slightest. As said in a previous thread, this will likely be the end of target shooting unless for the super rich or sponsored shooters, even then, what's the point in competitions if there's only 1 person In it?
Anyone who says they're on par really need their heads checking.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

My question is if/when this comes in to play - will the price of lead free come down?
For anyone that says lead free is cheap or as cheap as premium bullets, don't lie...
Barnes LRX in .264, 127g comes in at £62.99 for 50. That's expensive in itself. The equivalent to that as far as I'm concerned is for example the hornady eld m, 147g in .264. These come in at £47.99... for 100. Not 50. That would be £24 for 50 of them. There in NO comparison in cost in the slightest. As said in a previous thread, this will likely be the end of target shooting unless for the super rich or sponsored shooters, even then, what's the point in competitions if there's only 1 person In it?
Anyone who says they're on par really need their heads checking.

I can hand load barnes TTSX for £1.50 a Pop more or less the same price as 15 years ago.

Personally i do not class Hornady as premium bullets!

But to me price is irrelevant, i shoot 100-150 rounds a year and the red deer more than cover my costs, also the odd fox or 10

But personally i cant see the point in punching paper or gongs, but each to their own.

 

[Dunwaters]

Wait until a raptor in outer Mongolia gets suspected copper poisoning , so REACH goes for copper projectiles too.
Or bismuth and steel bb can't be produced in quantity.

' First they came for lead shot, but I said nothing.....'

Let’s deal with that when it happens…

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I can hand load barnes TTSX for £1.50 a Pop more or less the same price as 15 years ago.

Personally i do not class Hornady as premium bullets!

But to me price is irrelevant, i shoot 100-150 rounds a year and the red deer more than cover my costs, also the odd fox or 10

Yeh I get that and if I all did was shoot game I wouldn't have an issue whatsoever... The thing is I do enjoy shooting gongs or paper occasionally. On those days I could happily shoot a few hundred rimfire rounds and in excess of 50 centefire rounds. Expensive days out and something not everyone could afford to do... I also use the Sierra game changer, quite a bit cheaper than the hornady even still.

Also said previously I have made the move to steel shotgun cartridges for the best part, whilst I don't like them like the pigeon powers I used previously I can make it work (I have seen steel pass through and not kill a bird on a number of occasions though).

Just to add in after a quick Google, even hornady a tips are cheaper and that's saying something! Also to note - the Berger vlds are nearly half the price of those LRX...

 

[enfieldspares]

Here's my answer. On a postcard...literally...I'll be sending him my greetings via my MP next week! I'd urge others to maybe do the same. Just a few simple sentences will do.

 

[Liveonce]

My question is if/when this comes in to play - will the price of lead free come down?
For anyone that says lead free is cheap or as cheap as premium bullets, don't lie...
Barnes LRX in .264, 127g comes in at £62.99 for 50. That's expensive in itself. The equivalent to that as far as I'm concerned is for example the hornady eld m, 147g in .264. These come in at £47.99... for 100. Not 50. That would be £24 for 50 of them. There in NO comparison in cost in the slightest. As said in a previous thread, this will likely be the end of target shooting unless for the super rich or sponsored shooters, even then, what's the point in competitions if there's only 1 person In it?
Anyone who says they're on par really need their heads checking.

copper will never be the same price as lead a few minutes on the london metal exchange will show you copper is around four times the price of lead.

 

[Liveonce]

I can hand load barnes TTSX for £1.50 a Pop more or less the same price as 15 years ago.

Personally i do not class Hornady as premium bullets!

But to me price is irrelevant, i shoot 100-150 rounds a year and the red deer more than cover my costs, also the odd fox or 10

But personally i cant see the point in punching paper or gongs, but each to their own.

but few will enter the sport directly into deer shooting, most i bet will first experience the sport via target shooting be that air guns, .22lr or clay pigeon shooting.

hence for shooting to have a future it is so important to have an affordable easy path into the sport.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

but few will enter the sport directly into deer shooting, most i bet will first experience the sport via target shooting be that air guns, .22lr or clay pigeon shooting.

hence for shooting to have a future it is so important to have an affordable easy path into the sport.

The days of shooting being affordable ended donkeys years ago!

I can remember the days when Norma 100gn factory soft points were £15 a box, i can even take you to the hedge where a heap of the brass lays from practice shots on the range in the early days.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Here's my answer. On a postcard...literally...I'll be sending him my greetings via my MP next week! I'd urge others to maybe do the same. Just a few simple sentences will do.
View attachment 255712

That wont bothet them one single bit, there is not enough for us to make a difference!

For every one gun owner there are 10 against!