Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[enfieldspares]

Game shooting does the most damage, because it throws the most lead about, but BASC will defend them for sure, the rest of us will be thrown under a bus.

And of ALL game shooting the big bag commercial shoots are the worst of the worst...yet it's because of the need to attempt to justify the massive release and high density stocking of "non-native pheasants" against criticism from Wild Justice et al the BASC in compass with the BGA announced their call for a ban on lead in February 2020 to claim that it's all really "harvesting" food.

 

[Apthorpe]

Game shooting does the most damage, because it throws the most lead about, but BASC will defend them for sure, the rest of us will be thrown under a bus.

Although it also does the most good conservation work. One of the greatest failures of the debate to ban lead ammunition is that it is almost completely abstract and divorced from any examination of the real world. The damage that is alleged to be done is derived ONLY from estimates made by the anti-shooting lobby, there is no body of actual scientific data proving lead ammunition does any significant harm outside wetlands. This is a fact and you, a shooter, are prepared to ignore the facts and side with the claims of antis.

Are you actually doing anything to avoid shooters being thrown under a bus? The "rest of us will be thrown under a bus" quite deservedly because we can't be arsed to stand up and campaign against a dishonest campaign to ban shooting. How do you expect not to end up under a bus when you're publishing comments claiming that shooting causes lots of damage?

 

[griff]

And of ALL game shooting the big bag commercial shoots are the worst of the worst...yet it's because of the need to attempt to justify the massive release and high density stocking of "non-native pheasants" against criticism from Wild Justice et al the BASC in compass with the BGA announced their call for a ban on lead in February 2020 to claim that it's all really "harvesting" food.

Harvesting for Food. Well if thats the case, I think we will be in for big shock this year as I have just heard of a shoot that has paid £24.00 for poults. Wonder what the GD will give us!

 

[Apthorpe]

Harvesting for Food. Well if thats the case, I think we will be in for big shock this year as I have just heard of a shoot that has paid £24.00 for poults. Wonder what the GD will give us!

Sounds entirely in line with the ....er.....highly optimistic and not-at-all-fictitious values you'd elsewhere provided for the value of game meat exports. Surprised you think it's expensive.
Of course, the price for poults is also now likely to include the levy for marketing the game charged by the BGA.

 

[griff]

Sounds entirely in line with the ....er.....highly optimistic and not-at-all-fictitious values you'd elsewhere provided for the value of game meat exports. Surprised you think it's expensive.
Of course, the price for poults is also now likely to include the levy for marketing the game charged by the BGA.

See the truth smacks you in the face several times and still your heads in the sand..
As Kevin Bridges would say " enjoy the rest of your night "..

 

[Robs]

Conor, I like the use of opinion in your text. It both patronises the contributers and dismisses the clear results of a total ban. I do participate in all aspects of shooting sports from game, clays, fullbore and smallbore target. Most importantly for me I actually contribute to the running of several shooting clubs one which covers, .22lr, muzzleloaders, stalkers and target shooters. They rely on each other and a landowner for the club to survive. The game and clay clubs will be fine but the target shooting clubs have no way out. You have regurgitated the same lines. How about getting off the fence and tell us what the BASC will say about those sports that are under real threat.

 

[Liveonce]

Conor, I like the use of opinion in your text. It both patronises the contributers and dismisses the clear results of a total ban. I do participate in all aspects of shooting sports from game, clays, fullbore and smallbore target. Most importantly for me I actually contribute to the running of several shooting clubs one which covers, .22lr, muzzleloaders, stalkers and target shooters. They rely on each other and a landowner for the club to survive. The game and clay clubs will be fine but the target shooting clubs have no way out. You have regurgitated the same lines. How about getting off the fence and tell us what the BASC will say about those sports that are under real threat.

i disagree i do not think all clay clubs will be fine. Both moving to steel shot with biodegradable wads or an exemption allowing continued used of lead but with shot collection in place will be significantly painful for a lot of clubs.

As for cf target shooting i say again where is the logic in allowing the very frequent military and police use of ranges like Hythe and Lydd in Kent with lead bullets but not the occasional use by civilian clubs unless using non toxic.

 

[Dunwaters]

Although it also does the most good conservation work. One of the greatest failures of the debate to ban lead ammunition is that it is almost completely abstract and divorced from any examination of the real world. The damage that is alleged to be done is derived ONLY from estimates made by the anti-shooting lobby, there is no body of actual scientific data proving lead ammunition does any significant harm outside wetlands. This is a fact and you, a shooter, are prepared to ignore the facts and side with the claims of antis.

Are you actually doing anything to avoid shooters being thrown under a bus? The "rest of us will be thrown under a bus" quite deservedly because we can't be arsed to stand up and campaign against a dishonest campaign to ban shooting. How do you expect not to end up under a bus when you're publishing comments claiming that shooting causes lots of damage?

The debate is over and has been since REACH made the ban on lead civilian firearm projectiles official government policy.
The evidence gathering and evaluation phase is finished, we are now at the phase of the process where all that’s up for discussion is the transition plan. The government doesn’t really matter now, its in the hands of the civil service, so its going to proceed until the process is complete or the policy is changed and theres zero chance of a policy change in the current climate.
The war is over and we lost.
We need to decide, and decide fairly quickly, where we “need” to retain lead and support our national bodies lobbying for those exemptions, there wont be many so choose wisely.

 

[Sharpie]

Not quite sure what this means apart from washing your hands of the whole thing and giving into the masses?

Some might say from this decision a great religion was created which had brought great support and happiness (and wars) to many people.

Thirty pieces of silver used to be the bribe for betrayal. Not sure what's that worth in today's money.

Nevertheless I would encourage people to respond, sensibly, in a measured and informed way, to the consultation. And subsequently the socio-economic analysis, maybe even both ASAP. But also prepare yourselves. Only a few weeks in to the consultation, then the followup. Seems to be rather rushed, wanting to get ahead of EU Reach's/ECHA's deliberations (which will decide things definitively, probably at a Helsinki summit, at where GB/UK views might even be listened to, a little, after all we have provided a lot of scientific evidence and data into that process).

ISTM that there are some unconscionable practises going on here, in recent years, with which I have never engaged, but the "follow the money" types are in too deep There might be a wakeup call by Sept. this year or next, the knock-on effects of Bird Flu, importation of poults and eggs, the price of feed and so on, that might have messed up some plans .And, I suppose, some livelihoods. Only just released from that now that Spring/Summer is here, but it will almost certainly be back again soon enough, as the weather gets colder again.

As for we rifle shooters, both sporting and target, even air rifles, well that's another matter that is rather more nuanced, or maybe not. Other organisations/disorganisations, might have something to say about that, or maybe not, of little influence, so it would seem.

It's all a perfect storm. But entirely unsurprising, except to those who seem to have been living in a cave for several years. I am still curiously optimistic that it might still be knocked back into touch by the Secretary of State, as before, at least for a few more years. However I like to live in hope.

 

[Dunwaters]

i disagree i do not think all clay clubs will be fine. Both moving to steel shot with biodegradable wads or an exemption allowing continued used of lead but with shot collection in place will be significantly painful for a lot of clubs.

As for cf target shooting i say again where is the logic in allowing the very frequent military and police use of ranges like Hythe and Lydd in Kent with lead bullets but not the occasional use by civilian clubs unless using non toxic.

Clay grounds and clay shooting will change to steel and it will be a fairly painless process.
Ammunition used in the various disciplines is regulated and specified by the various ruling bodies, if you were changing on your own you might have some issues but with the EU on the same track the changeover will be simple enough.

 

[Apthorpe]

See the truth smacks you in the face several times and still your heads in the sand..
As Kevin Bridges would say " enjoy the rest of your night "..

That does seem to be your modus operandi.

 

[Apthorpe]

The debate is over and has been since REACH made the ban on lead civilian firearm projectiles official government policy.
The evidence gathering and evaluation phase is finished, we are now at the phase of the process where all that’s up for discussion is the transition plan. The government doesn’t really matter now, its in the hands of the civil service, so its going to proceed until the process is complete or the policy is changed and theres zero chance of a policy change in the current climate.
The war is over and we lost.
We need to decide, and decide fairly quickly, where we “need” to retain lead and support our national bodies lobbying for those exemptions, there wont be many so choose wisely.

To the extent that your comment is true, I see no plausible pathway to turn an official government policy to ban the possession and use of lead projectiles into an useful set of exemptions. If that is settled policy, it has become it by deliberately ignoring the areas where we need to retain lead, and as you argue, perhaps wisely, there is no way back from that.
The Civil Service is utterly incapable of being influenced in its actions even by government policy most of the time.

All we can do is to lobby for compensation for redundant firearms. All of the .22LR, .410, quite a few centrefire calibres collectively accounting for thousands of rifles, a large proportion of side by sides.

I’m glad you’re alright Jack, and many thanks for the conspicuous support.

 

[Kevgun]

Although it also does the most good conservation work. One of the greatest failures of the debate to ban lead ammunition is that it is almost completely abstract and divorced from any examination of the real world. The damage that is alleged to be done is derived ONLY from estimates made by the anti-shooting lobby, there is no body of actual scientific data proving lead ammunition does any significant harm outside wetlands. This is a fact and you, a shooter, are prepared to ignore the facts and side with the claims of antis.

Are you actually doing anything to avoid shooters being thrown under a bus? The "rest of us will be thrown under a bus" quite deservedly because we can't be arsed to stand up and campaign against a dishonest campaign to ban shooting. How do you expect not to end up under a bus when you're publishing comments claiming that shooting causes lots of damage?

I am constantly defending shooting, But commercial games are completely irresponsible in my opinion, how can they justify the massive bags that have killed the sport for the little shoots, its too late now! If the game shooting industry showed some restraint instead of the massive bags that are shot on the 1000 bird days in Devon, then maybe we wouldn't be discussing this.

I help out on several different shoots and conservation is done if it doesn't get in the way of Farming.

I'm not siding with anybody, I'm just saying what I see and from where I am it doesn't look good. I think that If us as shooters showed a little more restraint, then we wouldn't be in this mess, Another example is people putting up pictures of their kills, Great take a picture store it away for memory to look at at a later date, Don't stick it on social media for all the world to see, not everyone gets it.
OK It's legal to do as much, but is it right morally

We could a lot more to clean it up, but there is always the old fashioned stick the mud who will defend what their doing by trying to justify what they've always done is the right way and see no reason to change.

I have filled out surveys, lobbied Mp's all to no avail, so I have tried. I have taken friends out shooting, I have introduced several youngsters, both male and female to get into the sport, so yes I try to do my bit for shooting, The way I see it is the more of us there are, the better chance of getting more support from the organisations.

 

[Kevgun]

Conor, I like the use of opinion in your text. It both patronises the contributers and dismisses the clear results of a total ban. I do participate in all aspects of shooting sports from game, clays, fullbore and smallbore target. Most importantly for me I actually contribute to the running of several shooting clubs one which covers, .22lr, muzzleloaders, stalkers and target shooters. They rely on each other and a landowner for the club to survive. The game and clay clubs will be fine but the target shooting clubs have no way out. You have regurgitated the same lines. How about getting off the fence and tell us what the BASC will say about those sports that are under real threat.

I repeat, they'll throw us under a bus. I do a lot of pest control with a Air rifle around quite a few Farms, but if there is no effective alternative to lead, then all we can shoot at is bits of paper, Its not looking good, But it's the same old diatribe from the organisations. they don't seem to have any clear plan for the way ahead, any of them. They could start by making sure the HSE has accurate data and point out clearly who the worst polluters are, but we will all be classed as the same I'm afraid, so my little indoor rifle club where we can reclaim all of our lead safely will be classed the same as some Toff who gets through 3 slabs a day.

 

[Liveonce]

Clay grounds and clay shooting will change to steel and it will be a fairly painless process.
Ammunition used in the various disciplines is regulated and specified by the various ruling bodies, if you were changing on your own you might have some issues but with the EU on the same track the changeover will be simple enough.

sounds easy just shoot steel in the 12ga short term may allow most to continue but ask yourself in the long term how does the next generation enter the sport, most young will start with a .410 or 28ga.
Club insurance will probably go up, as steel shot is seen as a greater risk of ricochet than lead shot.

But I believe clay shooting is about to start declining from its current popularity, due already to the very significant increases in the cost of clays and cartridges and that’s before the ban on lead, RC put their prices up yet again yesterday I have been told, which probably means the rest will follow soon.

And if anybody thinks that their is enough steel shot manufacturing capacity present to replace all lead shot across the EU and U.K. (all made in china) or that it will magically appear in the next few years, given the global shortage of steel production (Ukrainian and Russia were big exporters of steel) then they are living in a different universe.

 

[enfieldspares]

All we can do is to lobby for compensation for redundant firearms. All of the .22LR, .410, quite a few centrefire calibres collectively accounting for thousands of rifles, a large proportion of side by sides.

There won't be. As the argument will be that "individuals will have adequate time to dispose of items" and that "the trade must (as well as it "will have adequate time to dispose of items") bear the loss as a risk of business".

Now, me, thought that all the pain of Brexit was so that we could be free of Brussels' rules that we didn't like and MORE IMPORTANTLY that as Johnson repeated time and time again if asked if we couldn't stay in the "single market" that we'd be " a rule taker and not a rule maker".

It seems to me that in the case of this lead ban we were lied to.

And I'd urge those in contact with their MPs to not only make THAT point but to also ask what has changed since David Cameron's Government rejected the Lead Action Group's call for a ban. Simply it will not wash that there has been sort of major discovery regarding lead between Cameron and now.

 

[Dunwaters]

All we can do is to lobby for compensation for redundant firearms. All of the .22LR, .410, quite a few centrefire calibres .

I’m glad you’re alright Jack, and many thanks for the conspicuous support.

I’m pretty far gone from alright, but I’ve read the papers and seen the shift from us asking them to prove lead use is harmful to the officials stating as fact that lead is harmful and we’re going to ban it for the common good.
End of discussion.
I love .22 shooting and unless there’s a significant derogation from policy, thats finished for both target and small game shooting with existing barrels.
Small bore shotguns will survive but low volume demand will probably mean delays in ammunition development and production, perhaps it can be dealt with as part of the transition process ?
Part of the reason we find ourselves in this dire situation is that many/most of us didn’t realise that the rules were unilaterally changed by REACH’s adoption of the health and environmental advice. We now have to prove that what we propose is beneficial and harmless against the presumption that lead ammunition use constitutes a harmful and unnecessary hazard.
Dragging lead pipes, flashing, solder etc etc into the debate at this stage is an unnecessary distraction, we’re no longer the hunters, we’re the quarry.

 

[Liveonce]

There won't be. As the argument will be that "individuals will have adequate time to dispose of items" and that "the trade must (as well as it "will have adequate time to dispose of items") bear the loss as a risk of business".

Now, me, thought that all the pain of Brexit was so that we could be free of Brussels' rules that we didn't like and MORE IMPORTANTLY that as Johnson repeated time and time again if asked if we couldn't stay in the "single market" that we'd be " a rule taker and not a rule maker".

It seems to me that in the case of this lead ban we were lied to.

And I'd urge those in contact with their MPs to not only make THAT point but to also ask what has changed since David Cameron's Government rejected the Lead Action Group's call for a ban. Simply it will not wash that there has been sort of major discovery regarding lead between Cameron and now.

Do try, however regrettably I do not feel any good will come from contacting your MP, I visited mine several times over the mandatory GP reporting at the same time I had a formal PCC complaint in progress regarding the matter. The MP was hearing but not listening anything technical with detail and they switch off. Unless may be impacts directly on them.
Same attitude as when Michael Howard was my MP during the lead-up to the pistol ban.

It‘s just a way of you letting off steam and they comforting you,…… then …. next please.

 

[Rewulf]

And I'd urge those in contact with their MPs to not only make THAT point but to also ask what has changed since David Cameron's Government rejected the Lead Action Group's call for a ban. Simply it will not wash that there has been sort of major discovery regarding lead between Cameron and now.

But...but ... those poor condors !
These are a few of the reports about the Californian condors.

BirdLife Data Zone

Did lead ammunition almost drive California condors to extinction?

We examine the claim that the most significant factor in the near extinction of the Californian Condor was lead poisoning through exposure to hunting ammunition.

www.whatthesciencesays.org

Bear in mind that they admit the numbers were declining anyway, also bear in mind that man has been shooting , with lead , in those areas for at least 150 years.
California , a notoriously anti gun state, banned lead use for hunting in the condors areas in 2008.
They site non compliance as the reason this had little effect on lead levels in the birds.
However.....

'Lead poisoning from ingestion of spent lead ammunition is one of the greatest threats to the recovery of California Condors (Gymnogyps californianus) in the wild. Trash ingestion by condors is well documented, yet the extent that trash presents a lead exposure risk is unknown. We evaluated 1,413 trash items collected from condor nest areas and nestlings in the Transverse Range of Ventura County, California, US, from 2002 to 2008, for their potential as a lead exposure risk to condors. We visually identified 71 items suspected to contain sufficient lead to be of toxicologic concern. These items were leached with weak acid and analyzed for lead. Twenty-seven of the 71 leached items (~2% of the 1,413 items) were "lead containing" based on criteria of a leachate lead concentration >1 μg/mL, with the majority of these items (22; 81% of the 27 lead items) being ammunition related (e.g., spent bullet casings and jacketed bullets). Only three of the 1,413 items collected were lead containing but were clearly not ammunition related; the other two lead-containing items were unidentified. Our results suggest that trash ingestion of nonammunition items does not pose a significant lead exposure risk to the California Condor population in California.'

Lead Exposure Risk from Trash Ingestion by the Endangered California Condor (Gymnogyps californianus) - PubMed

Lead poisoning from ingestion of spent lead ammunition is one of the greatest threats to the recovery of California Condors (Gymnogyps californianus) in the wild. Trash ingestion by condors is well documented, yet the extent that trash presents a lead exposure risk is unknown. We evaluated 1,413...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So not only is it the bullets themselves that are the issue, but the shell casings too ?
But according to the report, anything else containing lead isnt an issue, can you see the problem here ?

However, lead exposure is not the only ongoing problem faced by the released or newly wild bred Californian condors, with the following from the same report:

“It is likely that fledging success would be reduced to zero again if chicks were not vaccinated for West Nile virus, examined monthly for ingestion of microtrash (i.e., small bits of refuse of human origin including items such as rags, nuts, bolts, washers, plastic, bottle caps, chunks of pipe, spent cartridges, and pieces of copper wire) and treated on site by veterinarians and field biologists”.

In California , as has been done here, a clear case of thinking of a 'solution' , and then creating the data that defines the 'problem'

 

[big ears]

I repeat, they'll throw us under a bus. I do a lot of pest control with a Air rifle around quite a few Farms, but if there is no effective alternative to lead, then all we can shoot at is bits of paper, Its not looking good, But it's the same old diatribe from the organisations. they don't seem to have any clear plan for the way ahead, any of them. They could start by making sure the HSE has accurate data and point out clearly who the worst polluters are, but we will all be classed as the same I'm afraid, so my little indoor rifle club where we can reclaim all of our lead safely will be classed the same as some Toff who gets through 3 slabs a day.

Looked into this. There is already non toxic air gun pellets being produced. The market is big enough for more to follow suit.
Don’t think it’s as gloomy as you predict