Basic Reloading .1

BRACES of Bristol - Sauer 100 XTA Stainless Package
M

Muir

Well-Known Member
This is a dummy for my .54 Sharps. Sixty-five grains of powder, 440 grain bullet. The correct cartridge for the later Sharps percussion guns was a case length cartridge with thin paper over the back end. I'm trying them for the first time this weekend. When the bullet is (gasp!) seated to the lands, the breechblock just clears the back of the case. The main body of the case should be incinerated on ignition ~Muir
Reloading 0.1.webp
 
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Wow. You guys need lessons. The cartridge is designed to combust on ignition. I have shot this M1859 percussion Sharps quite a bit with folded tail cartridges and it will throw them into about a single hole at 60M. (my coarse sight limit) The rifle is very accurate. Sharps made it's reputation on this kind of cartridge.
I am just experimenting with the later, 1863 flat based variety of cartridges. Cleaner and less waste.
Tie a string! Sheesh! ~Muir
 
Are the folded tail ones more robust? The paper looks thicker. Just thinking about the practicalities of carrying a few ready rolled
 
Muir said:
This is a dummy for my .54 Sharps. Sixty-five grains of powder, 440 grain bullet. The correct cartridge for the later Sharps percussion guns was a case length cartridge with thin paper over the back end. I'm trying them for the first time this weekend. When the bullet is (gasp!) seated to the lands, the breechblock just clears the back of the case. The main body of the case should be incinerated on ignition ~Muir
View attachment 265554
Click to expand...
Looks fun video of explosions please!
 
Muir said:
Wow. You guys need lessons. The cartridge is designed to combust on ignition. I have shot this M1859 percussion Sharps quite a bit with folded tail cartridges and it will throw them into about a single hole at 60M. (my coarse sight limit) The rifle is very accurate. Sharps made it's reputation on this kind of cartridge.
I am just experimenting with the later, 1863 flat based variety of cartridges. Cleaner and less waste.
Tie a string! Sheesh! ~Muir
Click to expand...
I've been thinking about one of these for several years, well, because. I do shoot muzzleloaders. A local RFD has had one hanging around, never fired, for many years. IAB carbine. But over priced, due to "rarity value". I.e. he can't sell it.

I've researched them extensively, and realised that to do it properly would almost be a full time job, deep into the weeds.

The idea of using card tubes, backed with e.g. cigarette paper for the musket cap to ignite, after a long path with a 90 degree bend, is just wrong.

They were designed so that the paper cartridge was to be sheared off at the breech as the action was closed as the block rose, exposing the powder. Which of course must be true black, not some substitute.

You can shoot them without making cartridges, seat a bullet into the lands, tap it in lightly with a wooden rod, pour in some real black behind, fill it all the way up, muzzle down, close the breech and have away, one shot at a time. Seen it done.

Works. But then the cleaning afterwards. If a full load of black is not right, then you have to first put in some buffer, e.g. cous-cous, and then the powder.

Here's a "bubba" having a go:

Front stuffers are a lot easier, overall.

Back in the Civil War era there were a lot of women employed making paper cartridges for these, with an horrendous incident when it all went horribly wrong, at least 200 died.

The best thing they did was to convert them to metallic cartridges. Which are useful, if that sort of history resonates. Doesn't so much over here, though they did become popular after the Quigley Down Under film.

We even used to have a "bucket shoot," with actual buckets, just for them, at Bisley. Crossed sticks (authentic style) allowed. Channelling their inner buffalo hunter dreams. Some even dressed for the part.
 
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Sharpie said:
I've been thinking about one of these for several years, well, because. I do shoot muzzleloaders. A local RFD has had one hanging around, never fired, for many years. IAB carbine. But over priced, due to "rarity value". I.e. he can't sell it.

I've researched them extensively, and realised that to do it properly would almost be a full time job, deep into the weeds.

The idea of using card tubes, backed with e.g. cigarette paper for the musket cap to ignite, after a long path with a 90 degree bend, is just wrong.

They were designed so that the paper cartridge was to be sheared off at the breech as the action was closed as the block rose, exposing the powder. Which of course must be true black, not some substitute.

You can shoot them without making cartridges, seat a bullet into the lands, tap it in lightly with a wooden rod, pour in some real black behind, fill it all the way up, muzzle down, close the breech and have away, one shot at a time. Seen it done.

Works. But then the cleaning afterwards. If a full load of black is not right, then you have to first put in some buffer, e.g. cous-cous, and then the powder.

Here's a "bubba" having a go:

Front stuffers are a lot easier, overall.

Back in the Civil War era there were a lot of women employed making paper cartridges for these, with an horrendous incident when it all went horribly wrong, at least 200 died.

The best thing they did was to convert them to metallic cartridges. Which are useful, if that sort of history resonates. Doesn't so much over here, though they did become popular after the Quigley Down Under film.

We even used to have a "bucket shoot," with actual buckets, just for them, at Bisley. Crossed sticks (authentic style) allowed. Channelling their inner buffalo hunter dreams. Some even dressed for the part.
Click to expand...

Truth be told, I have never shot black powder in my 2 percussion sharps. I have shot Pyrodex, BUT, never in loose charges poured onto the back of a breech seated bullet. I have made combustible paper powder charges to slip in behind the breech-seated bullet. Shoots very very well. I can link a video from one of the North/South Skirmishing Assn that describes pouring in varying charges of black powder behind a breech seated bullet. Sharps themselves said that a less than full chamber should be of no concern to the shooter. The idea makes me nervous -to the extent that in my Pedersoli Sharps I would make cartridges that were chamber diameter and used cornmeal filler to take up the excess volume in the (fat) cartridge. I have since learned that even bullet diameter cartridges -which are considerably narrower than the chamber, work brilliantly.

You like to reload. You would probably like making paper cartridges. It is interesting. For me the utility is a problem: Not legal for "Muzzle loader" season so to use my 1863 Sporting Rifle I must compete with cartridge guns. How much is that IAB?? They are about $1000 US here. ~Muir

 
That rifle has cleaned up beautifully! I expect nothing less than one huge bug hole shaped group...at no more than 60yds of course...
 
ChesterP said:
That rifle has cleaned up beautifully! I expect nothing less than one huge bug hole shaped group...at no more than 60yds of course...
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Thanks but the gun in the picture is a replica 54 cal 1859 Sharps. Percussion cap model. The original is a metallic 50-70.~Muir
 
Sharpie said:
The idea of using card tubes, backed with e.g. cigarette paper for the musket cap to ignite, after a long path with a 90 degree bend, is just wrong.
Click to expand...
Forgot to address this. The Army Ordnance determined that the folded paper cartridges inhibited accuracy and made the cylindrical cartridges standard issue in 1862 or 63. ~Muir
 
Muir said:
How much is that IAB?? They are about $1000 US here. ~Muir
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He's currently asking £500 for it.

Has a nice long range tang rearsight on it too.

Perhaps I should bite.

BTW Pyrodex is really nasty stuff. 777 is better, but either of them will burn out old , or even modern barrels far quicker than black, they burn much hotter, and pyrodex in particular leaves deposits that don't soften the way black, with suitable lube (on patch or smeared on bullet) does.

I used to have a Pedersoli Tryon in 45. Patched round ball. I could shoot at least ten shots using black, but after only three with pyrodex it was so hard fouled that the ball jammed 3/4 the way down, despite "persuasion" with my custom steel 45 diameter range rod and mallet. Back home and unscrew the breech time. Horribly corrosive too, I have no doubt about that. But, if you can't get hold of black, I suppose you have little choice. All the substitutes are poorer.

1658445545122.png

1658445605269.png
 
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Sharpie said:
He's currently asking £500 for it.

Has a nice long range tang rearsight on it too.

Perhaps I should bite.

BTW Pyrodex is really nasty stuff. 777 is better, but either of them will burn out old , or even modern barrels far quicker than black, they burn much hotter, and pyrodex in particular leaves deposits that don't soften the way black, with suitable lube (on patch or smeared on bullet) does.

I used to have a Pedersoli Tryon in 45. Patched round ball. I could shoot at least ten shots using black, but after only three with pyrodex it was so hard fouled that the ball jammed 3/4 the way down, despite "persuasion" with my custom steel 45 diameter range rod and mallet. Back home and unscrew the breech time. Horribly corrosive too, I have no doubt about that. But, if you can't get hold of black, I suppose you have little choice. All the substitutes are poorer.

View attachment 265646

View attachment 265647
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It is pretty hard to get black powder around here. No store wants the liability of storing it off-site, as is required. I've shot Pyrodex for many decades in everything from .28 cal to .577. I'm used to it.
That IAB looks good. For under $600 US that would be a steal in these parts. ~Muir
 
Pyrodex can work, but has considerably poorer ignition properties than black. Same goes for 777

Neither worked at all well in my Tryon, never mind the other downsides, trying to spark off substantial amounts, with a no.11 cap. My mentor in learning to muzzle load at the club (to get the tick in the box for my safe shooter's card) was a European champion in muzzle loading rifle competition, sponsored by Pedersoli as it happens. And this was his old rifle. Useless in his flintlocks also, we discovered. I only bought the one tub as an experiment so can't claim any wider experience. Other club members didn't like it either, definitely a lesser experience than black.

We got it going properly by putting in a pinch of black before the main charge. I think this is what they also do for the pellets, they have a little bit of black an the bases. Not that we use pellets. Seemed to work ok in e.g. muzzle loading revolvers where the quantities are much smaller.

It's only advantage is that it is still classified as a propellant, so less hassle to store. Otherwise it is just black powder, sulphurous, reformulated with inhibitors and potassium perchlorate as an oxidiser

Black is not difficult to find here, if your dealer doesn't have some, they can get it in or you can order it for them to hold for you. Henry Krank are the specialists and hold a wide variety. British, Swiss and Polish. https://www.henrykrank.com/reloading/powder/swiss-black-powder/

777 was also classified as a propellant, and IMO much nicer.no sulphur in it, less fouling too. But has now been reclassified as an explosive, so the same rules now apply as to acquiring and storing black. Not onerous, the license to do so is free, just that we have to keep it in a wooden compartmented box to a certain specification. We are allowed to keep up to 10kg of it in our houses.

This is the one I have, Peter Starley sells them at cost price to him, to give you an idea: Storage Boxes - Black Powder ISTR I paid about £30 for mine, years ago, thought of making my own, but it wasn't worth it.

So really, for me anyway, I just use black, or 777 for undemanding stuff like pistols.

Hodgdon triple seven powder and pellets are not exempt under Schedule 2 of the Explosive Regulations.

This means that any registered firearm dealer selling this product needs to ensure that they have an Explosive Acquire and Keep (A&K) certificate with the UN numbers of 0499 or 0501 listed.

If you already have this certificate but do not have the UN numbers listed on it, please return your Acquire and Keep certificate to the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Unit for amendment. There is no fee for this work.

For any customer purchasing Hodgdon triple seven powder and pellets, please ensure that you have a valid Explosives Acquire and Keep (A&K) certificate with the UN0499 and 0501 listed on it, which the registered firearm dealer will check. If you do not have an A&K certificate please apply to your local police force.

For anyone who already has an A&K certificate, please return your certificate for amendment, detailing why you have returned it.

You can get more information on the government website

Black powder substitute - Wikipedia

I suspect that trying to run an 1859 percussion Sharps with tube cartridges, on Pyrodex, might become an exercise in frustration., hangfires at the least, but maybe the musket caps could overcome that issue.

Still thinking about the I,A.B, but could see it becoming quite a project, and I don't need any more projects at the moment, fun though it might seem.
 
Reading your post is like reading one from 20 years ago when a person used a 10 year old tub of Pyrodex. Pyrodex had a reputation for hard ignition when it first came out, decades back, but there has been zero evidence in my guns. I hate to sound so contrary in my experiences but it's true. I hate unreliability more than I hate inaccuracy. I won't run the laundry list of traditional percussion rifles I have used it in, nor the black powder revolvers, but I will add that I have used it in metallic cartridges from various pistol cartridges to 32-40, 35 Straight (30-40 Krag reformed) 405 Winchester, 45-70, 11MM Mauser, and and 577 Snider. No issues.

I have used Pyrodex RS in hunting sidelocks from 45 to 58 calibers, hunting deer and dangerous game. I have used Pyrodex "P" in 28 to 36 caliber rifles -both hunting and match shooting. The 28 and 32 calibers used charges as small as 10 grain equivalent behind a patched round ball. My Parker Hale Whitworth has delivered near MOA at 200 yards using it. I used it in cap and ball revolvers for match shooting where hang fires or non-ignition would have knocked me out of competition.

I could go on but I'll finish by saying that in the paper-cartridge Sharps i have never had a hang fire, nor have I had a misfire except for the first day with the 1859 Carbine when I elected not to pull the clean out screw on the breechblock and to just blow the newness out of it with a few percussion caps. My bad. Cleaned it our properly and it functioned 100 % after that.

That aside. I can't understand your apprehension about the IAB. They are known to be pretty accurate guns and making cartridges, especially the folded tail version as depicted in the video posted elsewhere, is easy. If that rifle was in front of me for less than $600 US I'd have it. I hope you cave in! ~Muir
 
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