UK Government Launches UK Deer Management Strategy Consultation

[StephenToast]

Which is not what the consultation is trying to achieve at all!

Proves my point that if deer are just getting harassed onto areas that are not shot then it will all be pointless.

I realise that.

I don't know what the answer is other than forcing landowners to shoot deer or have their deer shot by someone else.

As much as I would like to see that happen I don't agree with the principal.

The best thing that will hopefully come from this consultation is the ability for people who want to shoot more deer to shoot more deer in the short term and hopefully be more effective at keeping them from doing damage on their land in the longer term by displacement.

For all that this isn't a great argument for legeslative change, as far as I can see there are no good reasons against legislative change to give landowners more freedom to cull more deer.

 

[User00040]

Venison price goes up. More people cull deer. Result is less deer

Sometime (late 70's, early 80's I believe) the price of venison in NZ went to $1NZ per lb.

Authors of the time note that working men were either taking leave or resigning from day jobs as the venison market was so lucrative. But as with any gold rush, they run dry eventually.

The big money market shifted to live capture, once some famers realised that a dead deer could only yield one paycheck (as the Asian 'medicine market' would pay for top grade velvet every year).

‐--------‐-------

Supposedly the deer contracting game in Scotland was simillar when it first started, (licensed lamping of deer in enclosed woodlands/forest first happened from the late 80's onwards), good money to be made from good effort.

We now have deer, lamped for generations, that don't hang around if anything is amiss. Forest roads often don't suit lamping either, as the deer are not encouraged to come far away from the thickets by good design of glades, or no suitable points to safely shoot from vehicle.

Not uncommon for some restocks to have no vehicle access at all, either walk along tracks with the lamp man behind you in the dark, or you'll get nothing!

The 'shoot it from the pickup window or leave it for another day' type of "stalker/deer manager"; easily spied from a distance due to their rotund figure and immaculate stalking kit, are the ones who happen to be the best at complaning to informing the forester that deer numbers are low to the point that it's pointless for them to stalk during the daylight hours... yet when checks are done, deer are rife along the back rides and thickets!

Improper useage of night shooting will cause more harm than good. Note that Forestery England Rangers already have lamps fitted to their pickups... yet they don't really do any fox control (?), so what's the lamp for?!

 

[308tikka]

Sometime (late 70's, early 80's I believe) the price of venison in NZ went to $1NZ per lb.

Authors of the time note that working men were either taking leave or resigning from day jobs as the venison market was so lucrative. But as with any gold rush, they run dry eventually.

The big money market shifted to live capture, once some famers realised that a dead deer could only yield one paycheck (as the Asian 'medicine market' would pay for top grade velvet every year).

‐--------‐-------

Supposedly the deer contracting game in Scotland was simillar when it first started, (licensed lamping of deer in enclosed woodlands/forest first happened from the late 80's onwards), good money to be made from good effort.

We now have deer, lamped for generations, that don't hang around if anything is amiss. Forest roads often don't suit lamping either, as the deer are not encouraged to come far away from the thickets by good design of glades, or no suitable points to safely shoot from vehicle.

Not uncommon for some restocks to have no vehicle access at all, either walk along tracks with the lamp man behind you in the dark, or you'll get nothing!

The 'shoot it from the pickup window or leave it for another day' type of "stalker/deer manager"; easily spied from a distance due to their rotund figure and immaculate stalking kit, are the ones who happen to be the best at complaning to informing the forester that deer numbers are low to the point that it's pointless for them to stalk during the daylight hours... yet when checks are done, deer are rife along the back rides and thickets!

Improper useage of night shooting will cause more harm than good. Note that Forestery England Rangers already have lamps fitted to their pickups... yet they don't really do any fox control (?), so what's the lamp for?!

If its brown its down?

 

[SussexSteve]

If the government are getting involved there's only one reason and thats tax

 

[YoungGun]

Disgusting stuff, tasted like bubblegum.

Could not agree more.

 

[Leec6.5]

If the government are getting involved there's only one reason and thats tax

There is ways around that legitimately

 

[308rws]

Imagine for the sake of argument ... national registration, with e.g. DEFRA(?) regulated training, annual skills testing, annual hunter licensing and game tags. Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker who continually fails the skills test = no hunter licence = no good reason for deer conditioned firearm ownership etc. Let's face it, if you cannot pass a skills test, how can you possibly have good reason to possess a deer conditioned firearm? Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker selling venison to a Game Dealer whose game tags consistently fail veterinary inspection = hunter licence revoked = no good reason as above. Landowners, leaseholders and stalkers who consistently fail DEFRA deer impact survey upon audit = financial fine. Imagine, landowners contractually passing liability for paying DEFRA fines to leaseholders and stalkers = leaseholders and stalkers looking to insure themselves against fines etc. Who said tax? Let's face it, if commercial deer management is registered for VAT or private stalking offset against VAT, how can you expect to be exempt from fines? All it would take would be a mandated national game tag - not so difficult to imagine legislation mandating that!

 

[finnbear270]

German Revier system sets out a damage and fine compensation scheme, Hunting lease holder has to pay for any crop damage.

 

[25 Sharps]

Imagine for the sake of argument ... national registration, with e.g. DEFRA(?) regulated training, annual skills testing, annual hunter licensing and game tags. Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker who continually fails the skills test = no hunter licence = no good reason for deer conditioned firearm ownership etc. Let's face it, if you cannot pass a skills test, how can you possibly have good reason to possess a deer conditioned firearm? Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker selling venison to a Game Dealer whose game tags consistently fail veterinary inspection = hunter licence revoked = no good reason as above. Landowners, leaseholders and stalkers who consistently fail DEFRA deer impact survey upon audit = financial fine. Imagine, landowners contractually passing liability for paying DEFRA fines to leaseholders and stalkers = leaseholders and stalkers looking to insure themselves against fines etc. Who said tax? Let's face it, if commercial deer management is registered for VAT or private stalking offset against VAT, how can you expect to be exempt from fines? All it would take would be a mandated national game tag - not so difficult to imagine legislation mandating that!

That is fine, to a point, but the whole issue is we need more, proficient people shooting deer not less. The more barriers you put in place the less people there are stalking deer - deer numbers are at 1000 year high due to those that are currently capable of taking deer not taking enough. How does further restriction of access to stalking solve that mathematical problem?

The system you are talking about is almost identical to that in place for badgers; skills test, tagging, random carcass inspection for shot placement, monitoring if there is an issue with potential for licence to be revoked. But they don’t force people, including large large landowners like the NT and RSPB to allow badgers to be shot on their land so I can’t see them doing it for deer. If herd species have a safe haven then it’s all a bit pointless.

 

[User00053]

Imagine for the sake of argument ... national registration, with e.g. DEFRA(?) regulated training, annual skills testing, annual hunter licensing and game tags. Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker who continually fails the skills test = no hunter licence = no good reason for deer conditioned firearm ownership etc. Let's face it, if you cannot pass a skills test, how can you possibly have good reason to possess a deer conditioned firearm? Any landowner, leaseholder or stalker selling venison to a Game Dealer whose game tags consistently fail veterinary inspection = hunter licence revoked = no good reason as above. Landowners, leaseholders and stalkers who consistently fail DEFRA deer impact survey upon audit = financial fine. Imagine, landowners contractually passing liability for paying DEFRA fines to leaseholders and stalkers = leaseholders and stalkers looking to insure themselves against fines etc. Who said tax? Let's face it, if commercial deer management is registered for VAT or private stalking offset against VAT, how can you expect to be exempt from fines? All it would take would be a mandated national game tag - not so difficult to imagine legislation mandating that!

Not on a taxation front directly, but England more than Scotland has small packets of land in different ownership, some with identifying numbers, so maybe time for the national farmers union or the likes to get on board and broadcast the wider message and get All on board as the actually own the land. They have a far bigger say than a few guys with a pastime who for the most part do it for recreation and with passion with some exceptions.
To add was not forgetting Wales come in number 43, your time is up! . Edit story missus, guys and girls with a pastime.

 

[Dhindes]

A few ideas from overseas.
Associations / syndicates hunt an area - compensate land owner if excess damage by deer. If landowner does not want to have hunting then they must also compensate Neighbours ( big issue with people like national trust who provide deer refuge).
Allow trained hunters to sell venison direct to public / normal butcher.
Consider “different hunting ( bow , black powder !) “ technique for muntjac to allow hunting in town parks etc.
encourage driven hunts for muntjac.
I see real value in building community participation and value for hunting - need access and need to benefit with venison for that to work.

Just some ideas which work in other areas of the world.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Consider “different hunting ( bow , black powder !) “ technique for muntjac to allow hunting in town parks etc.

Except DEFRA are not interested in promoting the hunting of deer but rather align with Norfolk Deer Search’s stated approach that is one of ensuring focused TERMINATION.

K

 

[User00053]

A dirty job, but someone has to do it we are told, must say am more of a terminator in spirit and practice, but as we all do have deers long term interests at heart, but looks like time for a good blotter-up to get number down for their own good and ours.

 

[User00040]

Except DEFRA are not interested in promoting the hunting of deer but rather align with Norfolk Deer Search’s stated approach that is one of ensuring focused TERMINATION.

K

Nothing wrong with that, deer are a prey animal, they need to be hit hard for the sake of the species or else you risk disease etc.

Too many places in Englandshire running a deer park with none of the controls required for a proper deer park.

The smaller deer are much harder to 'manage' (obviously smaller target, able to hide better, give birth to multiples) but easy to extract. Big herds on flat ground you just need a JCB for extraction (and possibly digging the hole they will land up in... )

 

[User00053]

Nothing wrong with that, deer are a prey animal, they need to be hit hard for the sake of the species or else you risk disease etc.

Too many places in Englandshire running a deer park with none of the controls required for a proper deer park.

The smaller deer are much harder to 'manage' (obviously smaller target, able to hide better, give birth to multiples) but easy to extract. Big herds on flat ground you just need a JCB for extraction (and possibly digging the hole they will land up in... )

All true, the disposal presents a problem for sure once all or as many as possible have embraced the concept.

 

[User00053]

have no idea if the little fellows could be driven, but if rules altered for shotgun and a suitable cartridge produced to look the part more than needed imo, estates, small syndicates and the likes could organise local drives on rotation for certain no shortage of suitable guns, though not for the faint hearted for sure. Edit.and free venison with takers, possible back to the pub for afters etc.

 

[VSS]

have no idea if the little fellows could be driven, but if rules altered for shotgun and a suitable cartridge produced to look the part more than needed imo, estates, small syndicates and the likes could organise local drives on rotation for certain no shortage of suitable guns, though not for the faint hearted for sure.

I should think muntjac could be caught in live traps in urban areas. I shouldn't be surprised if that's what ends up happening. But it would also leave the door wide open for illegal relocation.

 

[Leec6.5]

Except DEFRA are not interested in promoting the hunting of deer but rather align with Norfolk Deer Search’s stated approach that is one of ensuring focused TERMINATION.

K

15 odd years ago I took that piece of red ground on manage and keep the numbers under control, now in my work ethic if I take a job on I do that job to the best of my ability!

I don’t fanny about, there are too many people in the surrounding area that are not pulling their weight in managing these red deer that I have around me, so therefore I now and have done for the last two or three years shot every single red deer I have seen on sight subject to the law no messing about if it’s brown it is down end of!

I don’t want to kill the last red deer in this area, but until the numbers are under control or at a controllable level in that area it is wholesale murder end of death and destruction!!

Your obviously no in an area where herd species are a problem?!

 

[User00053]

I should think muntjac could be caught in live traps in urban areas. I shouldn't be surprised if that's what ends up happening. But it would also leave the door wide open for illegal relocation.

Interesting thought, for sure some are caught in snares, which could be thought about and would be effective in theory in some situations but maybe not in practice, worth trialing and works for fox’s, appreciate you will have thought about the concept.

 

[User00053]

15 odd years ago I took that piece of red ground on manage and keep the numbers under control, now in my work ethic if I take a job on I do that job to the best of my ability!

I don’t fanny about, there are too many people in the surrounding area that are not pulling their weight in managing these red deer that I have around me, so therefore I now and have done for the last two or three years shot every single red deer I have seen on sight subject to the law no messing about if it’s brown it is down end of!

I don’t want to kill the last red deer in this area, but until the numbers are under control or at a controllable level in that area it is wholesale murder end of death and destruction!!

Your obviously no in an area where herd species are a problem?!

Sounds like your in a good spot to create a vacuum with sweet ground which sucks them in ready for your attention, a satellite helping control, get a few like minded folks dotted about will make a difference. Problem is the like minded and motivated who are prepared to get stuck in, so to speak back to the old extraction after the deed.