DSC 2 without DSC 1?

Because three ICR's was totally pointless and the expense (and hassle) was deterring people from doing it e.g. me.

If you are competent then you are competent. No need to demonstrate it 3 times. I didn't have to sit Higher Maths 3 times to get my Certificate. You can debate what competent means all you want but if it is about getting venison into the food chain safely then either you can or can't.

I have now signed up after 15 years simply because I can give it a go with one ICR. I still have to meet the necessary standards, it hasn't got easier just more accessible.
Anyone can be competent once!

When you get somebody on the ground for three stalks, three different situations, maybe three different species, you get to gauge how that person performs in those particular Circumstances, There is a vast difference between gralloching a muntjac compared to a lowland red!!

Also there is a vast difference to how animals of different sizes in species are handled to make those carcasses fit for the food chain, how can you gauge somebody on one stalk who shot a muntjac if they are capable of handling a red or a fallow, how can you tick that box?

The simple answer is and you can’t, all the AW is doing is gauging the person on that day for that one stalk who can answer all those questions correctly just once and that is it end of subject! That doesn’t mean they’re gonna be capable of producing a perfect Carcass from red that weighs 100 kg when their only used to muntjac.

All DMQ have done is made the level two easier to justify the thousands of stalkers that they have registered that And not doing it end of simple as that, they have to justify their existence as the number one stalking training qualification provider that’s why they lowered it down to one stalk!
 
What would you say would be the main cause of a dsc1 fail...? Safety/Shooting?
@timbrayford

Personally yes I would say so, as a bloke who is not very good in a classroom situation and failed my written DMQ level one first time round, there are those who are academically marvellous Who can pis$ the theory side of things but a fuking useless in the field!
I am not quite following your trains of thought.....Do I gather you both see that inadequate Safety/Shooting is a direct result of the DSC1? Or that people with bad safety and shooting practices managed to get through the DSC1 test on the day?

It is the only nationally recognised qualification that we have got for shooting and safety...do you believe deer stalkers (with or without DSC1) are likely to be any more or less of a threat to public safety than say an exclusively night shooting Fox controller for whom there is no training scheme, safety nor shooting test at all?

What do you think would improve the situation?

Alan
 
How long before the Police, Forestry Commission, employers and the like break the DMQ/BASC strangle hold and start allowing ‘or equivalent qualifications’. Happens in pretty much every other field?
I turn up all the time to fix broken farm equipment with the only questions asked are?
1 How long do you think it will take?
2 How much is it going to cost?

No questions on if I know what I am doing lol
 
Anyone can be competent once!

When you get somebody on the ground for three stalks, three different situations, maybe three different species, you get to gauge how that person performs in those particular Circumstances, There is a vast difference between gralloching a muntjac compared to a lowland red!!

Also there is a vast difference to how animals of different sizes in species are handled to make those carcasses fit for the food chain, how can you gauge somebody on one stalk who shot a muntjac if they are capable of handling a red or a fallow, how can you tick that box?
Of course there are differences between situations and species....but the previous system did not specify that there must be three different scenarios or deer species did it?

Maybe not in the spirit as you say.... but you could do all three stalks shooting the deer from the same place, dropping the same species of deer in the same place....gralloching, recovering and larder work in the same way on the same species of deer?

Alan
 
I turn up all the time to fix broken farm equipment with the only questions asked are?
1 How long do you think it will take?
2 How much is it going to cost?

No questions on if I know what I am doing lol
But your reputation has gone before...if any previous projects had failed, the Jungle Telegraph would have been busy and not many farmers would be asking you to turn up?

Bad news travels fast...I always reckoned I was only as good as my worst job.

Without a mentor's recommendation or a track record a DSC1 (or a car driving test) is a reasonable route for those trying to get started.

Alan
 
I am not quite following your trains of thought.....Do I gather you both see that inadequate Safety/Shooting is a direct result of the DSC1? Or that people with bad safety and shooting practices managed to get through the DSC1 test on the day?

It is the only nationally recognised qualification that we have got for shooting and safety...do you believe deer stalkers (with or without DSC1) are likely to be any more or less of a threat to public safety than say an exclusively night shooting Fox controller for whom there is no training scheme, safety nor shooting test at all?

What do you think would improve the situation?

Alan
Alan,

Experience is the only way!

The problem with me Alan, is I am hardline, for me personally someone who wants to do the level two should be experienced in species big and small.

I have given many stalks away when i was an AW for people to do the level two for that we could be shooting muntjac or Low land red.

So I expect that candidate to be suitably prepared and ready for that ICR, now on that stalk he may get a red or he might get a muntjac or a roe but he/ she must be suitably experienced to deal with whatever situation should arise!

Now if you were to come stalking with me and you had no experience of stalking Low land reds, because there is a massive size difference between a Scottish red and a Norfolk red, then you’re going to have issues with your ICR so really how can you say that you are at a competent level if you are not experienced?

But there are thousands of stalkers in existence that are experts but who know **** all just because they’ve got a level two certificate in shot 3 muntjac so really the whole episode is nothing but a crock of shite
 
I am not quite following your trains of thought.....Do I gather you both see that inadequate Safety/Shooting is a direct result of the DSC1? Or that people with bad safety and shooting practices managed to get through the DSC1 test on the day?

It is the only nationally recognised qualification that we have got for shooting and safety...do you believe deer stalkers (with or without DSC1) are likely to be any more or less of a threat to public safety than say an exclusively night shooting Fox controller for whom there is no training scheme, safety nor shooting test at all?

What do you think would improve the situation?

Alan
I had Deer/Fox put on my cert as the FEO sat with me and Dad recounting the previous years of shooting, being a junior member of the 1944 club @ 14 (1975) Shooting from 11. Shooting .303 @ 15 on the 100 yard target....

To answer to your question " What would improve the situation"

Mine would be that spending a number of years with air guns 410's .22lr rough shooting, rabbits rats getting frozen to the bone standing in a muddy creek waiting for a duck roost shooting beating is far more of a prerequisite to rocking up answering a exam shooting a target and failing some part of the test as you want to go shoot a deer and nothing else, as you life is too busy or you can't be ar sed to do the first 2 lines... :popcorn:
 
I had Deer/Fox put on my cert as the FEO sat with me and Dad recounting the previous years of shooting, being a junior member of the 1944 club @ 14 (1975) Shooting from 11. Shooting .303 @ 15 on the 100 yard target....
That is exactly the scenario that I was referring to in post #25...but it is not available to everyone...so what about those who do not have that background? Are they not allowed to shoot or stalk because they do not share your childhood background and/or contacts and undoubted advantages?
Without a mentor's recommendation or a track record, a DSC1 (or a car driving test) is a reasonable route for those trying to get started.

What alternative to the DSC1 would improve the standard of shooting and safety for those without a mentor from an early age?

Alan
 
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As far as I am aware, you cannot take DMQ Level 2, unless you have attained Level 1.

It is now one ICR for Level 2, something I do not totally agree with. However for anyone taking Level 2, they will need a certain level of experience and at least double figures of deer to their account. You will need to know where the vast majority of the lymph system is on a deer and name them. Also wounded deer scenarios, and what you would need to do if you suspected a notifiable disease.
For those who have recently passed their Level 1, they will also obtain their meat handling certificate in with the Level 2, as this is not generally given out with Level 1, unless you have paid the extra for the Lantra certificate.
you need 1 cull animal now and you don't need to kill more than that so long as you fulfill the criteria. Thats exactly what Gamekeeper students do , you can learn finding and identity of the lymphatic system in a larder previously .
I dont agree with this but that's how it is now . I mean planning a stalk? " I jumped out of the vehicle carry me and the other students walked up to it set my rifle on sticks and shot it at about twenty yards"
 
That is exactly the scenario that I was referring to in post #25...but it is not available to everyone...so what about those who do not have that background? Are they not allowed to shoot or stalk because they do not share your childhood background and/or contacts and undoubted advantages?


What alternative to the DSC1 would improve the standard of shooting and safety for those without a mentor from an early age?

Alan
I had NO formal training as a panel beater/sprayer, however I saved up brought a small compressor a few dollys/hammers a cheap mig spray gun then taught myself on my own van knocking dents out, made my own car body puller then friends cars, then a bit of light salvage.
Was offered a job in a panel shop as the owner brought a weather vane I made and saw my panel work.
moved on to a RRoyce body shop then opened my own salvage yard for 10 years.
See Alan if you want to do something you have to get off your ar se and do it..not have people make excuses...

There are just as many air guns out there and rats/rabbits to be shot...just people don't want to, nothing has changed just the excuses have got longer....
 
Lots of views lots to read ! My take on DSC 1 is truck up you won't fail unless you
A, never shot a real rifle before or only had a few lessons?
B, not a clue about what could happen once you pull the trigger ( safety aspect or looking past your target )
C, Is yip yip you pasted but have never had anything Dead on the floor before !! You can't call a friend or look it up on youtube .
DSC1 needs to have this as part of it ! Or is this not major part or have I got it wrong .
 
I had NO formal training as a panel beater/sprayer, however I saved up brought a small compressor a few dollys/hammers a cheap mig spray gun then taught myself on my own van knocking dents out, made my own car body puller then friends cars, then a bit of light salvage.
Was offered a job in a panel shop as the owner brought a weather vane I made and saw my panel work.
moved on to a RRoyce body shop then opened my own salvage yard for 10 years.
See Alan if you want to do something you have to get off your ar se and do it..not have people make excuses...

There are just as many air guns out there and rats/rabbits to be shot...just people don't want to, nothing has changed just the excuses have got longer....
I am by no means arguing against the benefits of learning through experience. I am arguing that the DSC1 is far better than no training or experience at all. The DSC1 is a good way of acquiring knowledge which will inform and help you learn from your experiences going forward.

I am largely a self taught metalworker, I too welded up my own and my little friend’s cars just by picking up a gas torch, a pair of Gilbows and making some folding bars. Frogeye Sprite spring hangers were a specialty. I didn’t take it up professionally though…I preferred hitting hot stuff.

I ran my forge as a blacksmith for 50 odd years mainly designing and making public art projects for national monuments and town centres and I had absolutely NO qualifications to do so…apart from a fork lift driving ticket, "O" level metalwork and a school teacher’s certificate in handicraft and art. I would invariably buy a machine in order to achieve something I had designed, install it, push the green button...and then figure out how to make tooling for it and use it.

After the first 10,000 hours blacksmithing I had a reasonable idea what tooling I needed to make in order to realise the object I could see in my imagination.

A few years ago the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths decided I was okay and awarded me their Tonypandy prize and a silver medal. This came with a certificate which says I am entitled to put FWCB after my name and gave me the title Eminent Master Blacksmith, I have never used that award as any form of accreditation. I always set much greater store by the fact that actual working blacksmiths invited and paid me to lecture, demonstrate, jury exhibitions, give master classes at events around the world and entrusted their journeymen to work with me purely on my portfolio.

Every completed project gave Architects, Developers, Local Authorities and other institutions more confidence to employ me, for exactly the same reasons as your clients have confidence in you.

I am thus fully aware that it is possible to do stuff without paper qualifications, but it is not necessarily better. I have sent many days of head scratching to reinvent the wheel which a bit of education and training could have circumvented. The advantage for an artist though, was that sometimes though ignorance I came up with a slightly different wheel.

The benefits of understanding gained through learning on the job doesn’t mean that DSC1 actually contributes to unsafe shooting practices which is what both you and @Norfolk Deer Search seemed to be implying. The DSC1 syllabus and shooting test was compiled from the knowledge of many experienced stalkers just like yourselves. It is a vetted body of knowledge and best practice that is more wide ranging than any single mentor is able to provide. Of course some students when presented with that body of second hand knowledge will not take it all on board...but that also applies to bad habits gained from mentors or first hand experience...some people are doomed to repeat poor practice through closed minds.

Anyone can be competent once!

I agree that the DSC1 safety test, just like a car driving test, can only be a test of competence on the day, but that is still better than no safety awareness training or test at all.

Alan
 
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Many of the oldies on here, me included, came into stalking and shooting the old way, long ago :old:

However these days, many dont have that opportunity, and also with the way of the world its get a qualification to get anywhere. So Level 1 and Level 2 are the industry standard, and is at least a start for many on their stalking journey.

As long as people dont go and waster their money on these rip off stalking exams at £500 a day etc, and stick to DMQ 1 and 2
 
I am by no means arguing against the benefits of learning through experience. I am arguing that the DSC1 is far better than no training or experience at all. The DSC1 is a good way of acquiring knowledge which will inform and help you learn from your experiences going forward.

I am largely a self taught metalworker, I too welded up my own and my little friend’s cars just by picking up a gas torch, a pair of Gilbows and making some folding bars. Frogeye Sprite spring hangers were a specialty. I didn’t take it up professionally though…I preferred hitting hot stuff.

I ran my forge as a blacksmith for 50 odd years mainly designing and making public art projects for national monuments and town centres and I had absolutely NO qualifications to do so…apart from a fork lift driving ticket, "O" level metalwork and a school teacher’s certificate in handicraft and art. I would invariably buy a machine in order to achieve something I had designed, install it, push the green button...and then figure out how to make tooling for it and use it.

After the first 10,000 hours blacksmithing I had a reasonable idea what tooling I needed to make in order to realise the object I could see in my imagination.

A few years ago the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths decided I was okay and awarded me their Tonypandy prize and a silver medal. This came with a certificate which says I am entitled to put FWCB after my name and gave me the title Eminent Master Blacksmith, I have never used that award as any form of accreditation. I always set much greater store by the fact that actual working blacksmiths invited and paid me to lecture, demonstrate, jury exhibitions, give master classes at events around the world and entrusted their journeymen to work with me purely on my portfolio.

Every completed project gave Architects, Developers, Local Authorities and other institutions more confidence to employ me, for exactly the same reasons as your clients have confidence in you.

I am thus fully aware that it is possible to do stuff without paper qualifications, but it is not necessarily better. I have sent many days of head scratching to reinvent the wheel which a bit of education and training could have circumvented. The advantage for an artist though, was that sometimes though ignorance I came up with a slightly different wheel.

The benefits of understanding gained through learning on the job doesn’t mean that DSC1 actually contributes to unsafe shooting practices which is what both you and @Norfolk Deer Search seemed to be implying. The DSC1 syllabus and shooting test was compiled from the knowledge of many experienced stalkers just like yourselves. It is a vetted body of knowledge and best practice that is more wide ranging than any single mentor is able to provide. Of course some students when presented with that body of second hand knowledge will not take it all on board...but that also applies to bad habits gained from mentors or first hand experience...some people are doomed to repeat poor practice through closed minds.



I agree that the DSC1 safety test, just like a car driving test, can only be a test of competence on the day, but that is still better than no safety awareness training or test at all.

Alan
How did you start off your shooting?

The point I am making Alan is Where/When and Why has the path like many of us who learnt through Dads Uncles Older Brothers stopped compared to the volume of people who take up shooting with a clean sheet of no knowledge.

Dsc1 is a good platform but you need like all of us who took driving lessons before our test is you need to be prepared, however as long time shooter I noticed the nodding of heads which I saw many times in classrooms that some were way off understanding which bore out as people failed the shooting test..

As I often said in diver training "you might drown of boredom in the classroom but pay attention in the water" lol

There are plenty of rifle clubs both .22 and air guns where people could join up spend time getting trigger time as they are watched like a hawk for a good while.
Then the safety/shooting part would be a breeze..... :tiphat:
 
To achieve DSC2 the Candidate simply needs to demonstrate "their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically."

It really isn't - or shouldn't be - any more complicated than that, and not quite sure why some here seem to wish to make it so?

So nothing about serving apprenticeships, familial or otherwise, nothing about needing to shoot all six UK deer species, and nothing about achieving DSC2 meaning you become some kind of Grim Reaper as deer expire all around you as you progress through the woods. ;)

As to needing to have DSC1 before doing DSC2 - that is, of course, where the Candidate's number comes from. So a bit difficult if the Candidate hasn't done DSC1 already!
 
How did you start off your shooting?
As a kid, apart from bows and arrows, with friends who were allowed air rifles...I wasn't.

I have had a shotgun for pigeon and clay pigeon and a 22 Airsporter since my early twenties, both of which pretty well stayed in the case in the wardrobe for twenty years when I was really busy at blacksmithing.

Turn of the century we moved out of the village to a place with a couple of acres, gave up our allotments and I treated myself to a Daystate XLR PCP to remove some of the marauding rabbits...they all thumbed their noses at me from 40 yds so I applied for an FAC Air rifle. After a few years of occasional Roe damage the Fallow herd moved through one night and pretty well cleared the vegetable beds, so I decided to learn about deer and get a deer rifle. I had a few sessions at the Corinium range with Paul Hill as an introduction to centre fire and then did my DSC1. A couple of paid stalks with Paul and unpaid stalks with a keeper friend / mentor and I was on my own. I did the BDS HAD course because my mentor and another BDS friend were running the local scheme and I thought it a good thing to do. For the last five or six years I have attended a range session once a fortnight with my ex-keeper friend who is the RCO, and this year did the RSO course in order to help him in an official capacity.

As far as the jump to centre fire goes I had no problems after the initial shock of just how immediate it was after being able to watch the flight of an air rifle pellet. After a few sessions Paul Hill put me through a mock DSC1 test which I had no problems with, but when I took the actual one in Yorkshire I needed two attempts, and it wasn't the unfamiliar BDS rifle...I was setting up my tripod for the kneeling shot when the RCO insisted I lowered it, with disc problems my back was screaming and I pulled a shot...when I re-took it an hour later he didn't meddle and I could shoot from a comfortable position I had no problem...but that is one of your "longer excuses"! The two others on the course that didn't get the shooting part right, one had never shot before and was there as a wildlife photographer...the other who had been giving it large about his vast experience all through the course, missed the target and failed the safety test.

Alan

IMG_1057.webpIMG_1058.webpIMG_1059.webp
 
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DSC2 has already been made easier by making it only one Stalk instead of three.
Totally devaluing the qualification.
Has anyone any idea why this was done?
One might argue, it is more likely to ensure a competent person as demonstrating all aspects in one stalk required whereas previously there was an element of mix and match to tick off the learning objectives.

My personal reservation about the new system, is only a single witness. When I did my level two I used three different AWs in different areas of the country so that no accusations of ‘an easy ride’ were likely.

Its worthwhile as a qualification, not only to get FE/other agency stalking, but because it presents a bit of hard work and application of effort.
 
My personal reservation about the new system, is only a single witness. When I did my level two I used three different AWs in different areas of the country so that no accusations of ‘an easy ride’ were likely.
I did that myself three stalks three different AWs and three different species of deer.
 
One might argue, it is more likely to ensure a competent person as demonstrating all aspects in one stalk required whereas previously there was an element of mix and match to tick off the learning objectives.

My personal reservation about the new system, is only a single witness. When I did my level two I used three different AWs in different areas of the country so that no accusations of ‘an easy ride’ were likely.

Its worthwhile as a qualification, not only to get FE/other agency stalking, but because it presents a bit of hard work and application of effort.
Guessing you only had a single car text examiner who deemed you competent and you use that far more than a rifle.
 
My personal reservation about the new system, is only a single witness. When I did my level two I used three different AWs in different areas of the country so that no accusations of ‘an easy ride’ were likely.
I think it admirable to push your self and make the most of the opportunity by using three different witnesses, and much in sympathy with @Norfolk Deer Search 's point about the difference between tests with differing species...

But relative to the "old good" vs "new bad" issue....neither multiple witnesses nor multiple species were a requirement of the previous system, if there had been it would have justified the three stalk requirement...the new system is more logical from that point of view...and makes it more accessible logistically for the candidate without lowering any standards to be achieved.

I guess from a personal point of achievement and gaining experience / CPD there is no reason why an AW could not be asked to accompany you to stalk a different species even if you already had achieved DSC2.

Alan
 
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