norcan
Well-Known Member
Though it’s funny how the old horse and carriage still outperforms the car in this particular example, isn’t it?
New 6.5 CM rifle, what to get?!
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- 6.5 creedmoor bergara rifle tikka
norcan
Well-Known Member
Ballistic superiority and ability to seat bullets farther out while staying within maximum OAL, mainly.
The 6.5x55 was kneecapped in the US by the wimpy factory ammo that’s typically been produced for safe use in hundred-plus-year-old-rifles, so it never caught on there. On the other hand, there’s good ammo of all types available in Scandinavian countries.
If I lived the the US, it would make more sense to shoot the CM. If I lived in Sweden, it would be obvious to shoot the SE and get better performance.
In what way is the Creedmoor better, other than fitting into a short action?
The 6.5x55 was kneecapped in the US by the wimpy factory ammo that’s typically been produced for safe use in hundred-plus-year-old-rifles, so it never caught on there. On the other hand, there’s good ammo of all types available in Scandinavian countries.
If I lived the the US, it would make more sense to shoot the CM. If I lived in Sweden, it would be obvious to shoot the SE and get better performance.
In what way is the Creedmoor better, other than fitting into a short action?
Hi i picked up a sako s20 in 6.5 a week ago and carnt fault it one bit there is no magazine rattle or feed problems. I carnt belive the accuracy and lucky s&b 140 grn bullets clover leaf at 150 yards and they only £27 a box. I had this last night at 175 meter and dropped on the spot. Just my 10p worth.
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Better ammunition selection (huge community support, unlike the Swede), and better platform availability. Just about every company that makes rifles, lists a 6.5 CM as an option.
Aside from the short action itself, the 6.5 CM is better suited to detachable magazines, with higher capacity (not necessarily needed for hunting, but for competition it matters).
Ballistically they're identical, until you start trying to launch 160gr bullets. Then the Swede wins. But last I checked, not many are slinging 160gr 6.5mm bullets. There just isn't a need to with the quality of bullets these days.
norcan
Well-Known Member
@MarinePMI
Agreed; in the US market, the CM is the obvious choice. Different story in Sweden, though.
Agreed; in the US market, the CM is the obvious choice. Different story in Sweden, though.
You tell me which is more germane to this discussion, and carries more weight in the world market of firearms and ammunition.@MarinePMI
Agreed; in the US market, the CM is the obvious choice. Different story in Sweden, though.
You continue to evidence your lack of experience with the Creedmoor. The ballistic superiority you tout for the 6.5x55 does not exist.
I'll premise by saying that I own, and probably have owned, a bunch more 6.5x55's than you have. I currently have seven of them. I also have six Creedmoors. I have shot competition and game with both chamberings using handloads. There is really no difference. The first time I shot against a Creedmoor was with a 6.5x55 in an informal competition (Marine) at about a 3 MOA target at 710 yards from a loose rest. Identical bullets. Identical number of hits. Neither of us was struggling with a ballistically inferior load.
That the 6.5x55 is popular in Sweden is a surety, but as Marine pointed out, it'a a very big world out there and in a country that absorbs about 90 % of the worlds loading components and ammo, the 6.5 Swede is a serious non starter. I love it but I won't make it into something it is not. ~Muir
If I was looking at a rifle that I really wanted and they only offered the sweed or the 6.5 CM then I wouldn’t be bothered either way. They both shoot the same bullets at similar speeds.
The CM ammo does appear to be more readily available ammo wise but as I hand load that doesn’t really bother me.
Getting back to the actual question asked….
Anyone got much experience with Sauer 101?
The CM ammo does appear to be more readily available ammo wise but as I hand load that doesn’t really bother me.
Getting back to the actual question asked….
Anyone got much experience with Sauer 101?
The 6.5x55 was pressure wise kneecapped by the date it was designed in, just like 7x57, 8x57 etc of that time. Designed at the transition of black powder to more modern powder versions. Over the next 100 years cartridges developed use higher pressures and powders/primers designed to work with these higher pressures. In the meantime the short action cartridge has taken the majority of the market with around 10:1 share, meaning the 6.5x55 is maybe one of lowest powered long action cartridges. With long action you also have less rifle options, less aftermarket options, magazines made for either long or short actions few for in-between sizes such as x57 and x55. With the 6.5CM you buy simplicity.
Another point, the 6.5x55, 6.5x57 were often disputed as being proper big game cartridges. In many places you are not welcome with these. Yes Sweden might use them on Moose etc but mainly because they had nothing else just like Germans used the 8x57 after the war as they had many of them. The 6.5x57 even had such a bad reputation that, as far as I know, long action x64 cartridges were designed in such a way that existing 6.5x57 rifles could be reamed out to take the longer more powerful higher pressure cartridge.
I never had an interest in the 6.5x55 as it had so many disadvantages, the 6.5CM fixed these points with roughly the same muzzle energy. Hornady designed some fantastic bullets that go well with CM speed. I think the 6.5CM made 6.5's popular for the first time world wide. Those who love the 6.5x55 should be happy as the second hand shelves will be (are) filled with them.
Just as an example of two similar sized deer shot with 143 ELDX Hornady factory ammo, I was very impressed how this bullet works from a 20" barrel.
Taken at 30m. Exit hole 20-30mm (took 2 steps)
Taken at 614m. Exit hole 20-30mm (ran 40m)
edi
norcan
Well-Known Member
The "Swede" is mostly a Norwegian design, in collaboration with Sweden.. and is popular in Scandinavia because its the main competition round for 3-400.000 competition shooters. As a result its cheaper to buy fully loaded Lapua 6,5x55 Match Ammunition, then just the Lapua Brass.
Also making it the cheapest practice ammunition for hunting rifles as well, so 6.5x55 is the most popular hunting caliber.
I live 1km from the local shooting range with room for 10-20 shooters at a time. So I know they shoot a lot......
Wonder how many 6.5CM rounds are sold each year in the US..
Also making it the cheapest practice ammunition for hunting rifles as well, so 6.5x55 is the most popular hunting caliber.
I live 1km from the local shooting range with room for 10-20 shooters at a time. So I know they shoot a lot......
Wonder how many 6.5CM rounds are sold each year in the US..
I'd wager that just one major manufacturer has sold more 6.5CM's in the US than all the 6.5x55's sold in Scandinavia. They're everywhere here. Likely more popular now than .308, just judging by the brass buckets at the range.
I have pontificated in my usual way about the the merits of the 6.5 CM vs. the 6.5x55 Swede/Skan in several recent posts.
For example on this thread: 7mm08 or 6.5 cm Where several other respected people, with experience, have contributed similar thoughts.
Simple summary: Hornady did a great job designing this chambering, developing new 6.5mm bullets for all applications, marketing and distributing components and loaded ammunition, some of it of excellent quality and performance. Other manufacturers have followed, reloaders have learned, it is quite a well rounded thing. I would say quite dominant nowadays, in its class. Apart from in Scandinavia of course, for all the various historical and socio-economiic reasons, that are quite valid. There.
Altogether from a position of ignorance, as I have not yet even shot one. I am particularly intrigued about the supposed lower felt recoil of similar weight bullets, similar powder charges, in similar weight rifles, compared with say the 308, with which I am very familiar. Particularly as hereabouts we use silencers/moderators/suppressors.
Many years ago I was warned off the Swede by a very experienced "outfitter" with whom I had my first seven outings on deer. He had experienced its use by his clients many times, including many trips to Scandinavia, I suppose using the loadings and bullets available back then, and was unimpressed.
I used his rifles firstly in 270 (his starter rifle, downloaded to shoot 130 gr softpoints at legal, but not much more, energy), 308 and 30-06. He even wrote a nice letter for my FEO explaining that, on his grounds, for his species of deer, and boar, that e.g. a 243 would not be sufficient, I would need something pokier. Which was received well.
At the moment I don't really see a 6.5CM in my future, for deer stalking, compared with a 308. Particularly a short barrelled, say 18" 308. I am only little, just over 5'6""and under 10 stones, so such things matter more to me than probably to most others. Perhaps as a precision target rifle, where the external ballistics can obviously be superior, particularly at extended ranges. Though I have never felt the lack of that, using a 308 out to 900m, which is the limit of my usual target shooting ranges.
For example on this thread: 7mm08 or 6.5 cm Where several other respected people, with experience, have contributed similar thoughts.
Simple summary: Hornady did a great job designing this chambering, developing new 6.5mm bullets for all applications, marketing and distributing components and loaded ammunition, some of it of excellent quality and performance. Other manufacturers have followed, reloaders have learned, it is quite a well rounded thing. I would say quite dominant nowadays, in its class. Apart from in Scandinavia of course, for all the various historical and socio-economiic reasons, that are quite valid. There.
Altogether from a position of ignorance, as I have not yet even shot one. I am particularly intrigued about the supposed lower felt recoil of similar weight bullets, similar powder charges, in similar weight rifles, compared with say the 308, with which I am very familiar. Particularly as hereabouts we use silencers/moderators/suppressors.
Many years ago I was warned off the Swede by a very experienced "outfitter" with whom I had my first seven outings on deer. He had experienced its use by his clients many times, including many trips to Scandinavia, I suppose using the loadings and bullets available back then, and was unimpressed.
I used his rifles firstly in 270 (his starter rifle, downloaded to shoot 130 gr softpoints at legal, but not much more, energy), 308 and 30-06. He even wrote a nice letter for my FEO explaining that, on his grounds, for his species of deer, and boar, that e.g. a 243 would not be sufficient, I would need something pokier. Which was received well.
At the moment I don't really see a 6.5CM in my future, for deer stalking, compared with a 308. Particularly a short barrelled, say 18" 308. I am only little, just over 5'6""and under 10 stones, so such things matter more to me than probably to most others. Perhaps as a precision target rifle, where the external ballistics can obviously be superior, particularly at extended ranges. Though I have never felt the lack of that, using a 308 out to 900m, which is the limit of my usual target shooting ranges.
Where the 6.5 CM shines over the .308 at distance (even as little as 500yds), is the wind drift. The high BC 6.5 bullets make it almost cheating on wind calls compared to .308. There's a reason, that now, .308 rifles are in a separate division than 6.5 and 6mm rifles in competitions. Wind calls kill the .308.
Back when I was the only one shooting a 6.5 CM, it was like taking candy from a baby, at the local matches. I was consistently in the top 3 every month. <chuckle> Then everyone else figured it out.
That's why I chuckle when people start talking drop differences between the .308 and 6.5mm (<eyeroll>). Drop is calculable (it's just having good dope), wind is not. And a cartridge/bullet that has less wind drift has a lot more room for error by the shooter when making wind calls, than one that is shooting stubbier, less efficient bullets. And we all know, that wind is what gets most shooter's their misses at distance, not drop.
Out past 600yds, the 6.5CM just eats the .308's for lunch.
You'll have to forgive DTE - his record is stuck on repeating inaccurate statements. In a different discussion I even provided actual numbers (including for Norma the most popular Scandi ammo producer) which proved that for factory ammo 6.5 Creedmoor is ballistically superior to 6.5 Swede. I don't have an issue that he's fan of 6.5 Swede but he keeps repeating factually inaccurate statements.
I'm sensing this. ~Muir
norcan
Well-Known Member
No argument here.
Like I said, outside of the Swede’s home turf, the CM is the one to have. And inside of it, why not go for the bigger boiler room?
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