This is why I don’t like chest shots.
- Thread starter Dunwaters
- Start date
David Barker
Well-Known Member
Guides fault and maybe time for a career change.
So if you had got paid grade a for all the deer plus a few deer extra (because you would if you were highly mobile on your own) what's the difference in the money paid in stalking fees and the full grade a carcass money?
Two head shot fallow does and that's more than the stalking fees paid by a client and it's alot less hassle.
Two head shot fallow does and that's more than the stalking fees paid by a client and it's alot less hassle.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Ouch, a bit harsh
It sounds to me like the experienced shots weren’t as good as they should be. I have ridden motorbikes, gone diving and shooting with (not at the same time) people who are all far better qualified and better than me…. Until I have gone out with them and realise that they are not as good as they make out.
Annoying but does seem to be the the way.
Annoying but does seem to be the the way.
caorach
Well-Known Member
Mostly I shoot sika in sitka and probably 2/3rds of the forest is now clearfell or replanting of varying age. Chest shots are great in the sense that you can be certain the deer is dead, but you can also be certain that you'll never see it again.
I had an interesting demo of this quite some years back when I chest shot a sika hind in the snow. I took the shot because of the snow as she was close to some replanting, with the trees maybe up to 8 - 12 feet tall at the time, but with snow I was certain I'd find her. I did find her so the following comments are enabled by hindsight. The shot broke both her shoulders, when dragging her out I was concerned I might pull her legs off, both of them were completely destroyed. Out of interest, once she was recovered, I went back to the shot site and spent some time looking for any sign of a hit as the snow should have made this a simple task. Apart from the tracks in the snow made by her feet the only evidence of a hit I found were a few hairs at the shot site, I can't even be sure they came from the deer I hit and we aren't talking about a clump of hair, we are talking about 2 or 3 individual hairs which stood out against the snow. Under normal circumstances only internet forum experts would have found the hairs, never mind knowing they indicated a strike. Despite the destruction of her front legs the deer managed to jump a big drainage ditch and make her way into the replanting jungle, she made it about 30 yards or more into the trees. I could see that in some places she took the snow off the top of various hummocks and so can only guess that her legs were giving way and her chest was hitting the hummocks. Eventually the tracks simply stopped. I circled the area and couldn't find them starting again anywhere. So I went back to where the tracks stopped and started searching as there was simply no deer to be seen. As you'd understand when in forestry there isn't snow on every single square foot of ground, sometimes it settles on branches etc. Eventually I found that she'd crawled in under a branch with lots of snow on it and she had got into the vegetation (molinia mostly) beneath it and was completely hidden from sight, I was under the big branch a few times before I eventually crawled on top of her. Having the tracks in the snow I had an area of only a few square yards to search and yet it still took me quite a few minutes to work out what might of happened and find the deer.
I'm going to suggest that if you are new to shooting deer, especially, you need to consider your circumstances and ground and to adapt as necessary. The internet forums are full of people who have a secret shot, or a secret bullet, or special skills that mean their deer always go straight down. I've seen deer go straight down to a chest shot, I've also seen them look around and then continue feeding like nothing happened until they fell over. So I think everyone needs to consider their own circumstances carefully and keep in mind that there isn't one right answer, and you are unlikely to find the answer to the precise shooting situation you find yourself in on the internet. I would also suggest that the more determined someone is that there is only one right way to do something then the more likely it is that they've never done it in a range of different situations or had to consider the full range of likely outcomes.
Sometimes it’s a sh*t show…it’s part and parcel…a few years ago I had a run of losses on roe, absolute nightmare and by the third in a row I felt sick about it. All in a similar area and all making it into thick rhododendron banks…the forth I searched for and I only found as there was a pool of blood that was dripping down onto the ground…I have no idea if the previous three were the same but number 4 had jumped and was suspended up in the branches of the rhodies….probably about 2ft off the ground, it must’ve been a final leap…
I don’t give a monkeys about the grading or meat loss, I’d rather a clean DRT, and usually pinning/hilar shots result in this.
Hopefully better luck for your next outing.
Regards,
Gixer
I don’t give a monkeys about the grading or meat loss, I’d rather a clean DRT, and usually pinning/hilar shots result in this.
Hopefully better luck for your next outing.
Regards,
Gixer
Not much good when the beast has fallen into a dip or if the trees have been planted rig and furrow....
My moto recently has been -through the shoulder and put it down as I was fed up having to track the deer through thickets / furrows / and low branches .. to time consuming . Out on the hill I didn’t mind a chest shot and always planted it there . A dog is a must and I don’t go out without it I’m afraid .
interesting read. I would put it down to a few factors:
It sounds like your guests need more shooting practice.
It sounds like tough terrain for finding deer that have run even a short way- This may not be a good idea for inexperienced shooters.
I wouldn't trust any guest shooting off sticks- not sure how much of this was done. I only use them as a last resort.
I know of very experienced shooters having an "off" day where everything goes wrong so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. At least the vermin will have full bellys for a while.
It sounds like your guests need more shooting practice.
It sounds like tough terrain for finding deer that have run even a short way- This may not be a good idea for inexperienced shooters.
I wouldn't trust any guest shooting off sticks- not sure how much of this was done. I only use them as a last resort.
I know of very experienced shooters having an "off" day where everything goes wrong so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. At least the vermin will have full bellys for a while.
Phone a friend try the follow organisations 1.Before reading on, if you are searching for a deer and need the advice of the UKSHA please call 0800 6890857 immediately
2. UK Deer Track & Recovery (UKDTR)
2. UK Deer Track & Recovery (UKDTR)
Not much good is the pessimistic way of dismissing something that is better than nothing.
What if the wounded or dead deer didn't fall into a dip and just wasn't visible to the naked eye or binoculars, what if the warm blood it had cast just wasn't visible to the naked eye?
Maybe you've never used a thermal spotter, I don't know but if you had I suspect you wouldn't be so dismissive of them. They are an essential tool in this day and age especially if you are guiding people of unknown experience. You can buy a decent used one these days for under a grand, there's no excuse for a professional not to have one.
8x57
Distinguished Member
I don't think he's in the U.K.
His Avatar says he is in the Irish Republic.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Low down just above the sternum and very slightly off centre, clipped the edge of the shoulder blade and headed south.
No exit and I didn’t go trawling for it but it probably ended up in a hip.
billy_boyle_2010
Well-Known Member
A very honest account but I must say it was difficult reading.
It really doesn't sound like the shooters were particularly accurate. Or their zeros were well off.
Nor were the animals presenting themselves in the ideal positions- various stages of quartering.
If you don't want chest shots next time- what will you go for ? Head and neck shots would have meant a lot more wounding, and some clean misses by the sounds of it. But those that were hit properly would have dropped of course.
I haven't shot enough deer to preach. But it does sound unethical IMO. Don't these beautiful creatures deserve quicker kills and their carcasses to be retrieved ?
Thanks for the honest post though.
It really doesn't sound like the shooters were particularly accurate. Or their zeros were well off.
Nor were the animals presenting themselves in the ideal positions- various stages of quartering.
If you don't want chest shots next time- what will you go for ? Head and neck shots would have meant a lot more wounding, and some clean misses by the sounds of it. But those that were hit properly would have dropped of course.
I haven't shot enough deer to preach. But it does sound unethical IMO. Don't these beautiful creatures deserve quicker kills and their carcasses to be retrieved ?
Thanks for the honest post though.
Leec6.5
Well-Known Member
When i have clients i insist on shoulder shot, makes life simple, but the carcass is all inc in the price so no dealer required.
Even if i did get them hovered up, i would expect to get docked, there is bugger all coin in shooting deer, its in taking clients and the venison is a secondary concern, unless like me the client retains the carcass.
Even if i did get them hovered up, i would expect to get docked, there is bugger all coin in shooting deer, its in taking clients and the venison is a secondary concern, unless like me the client retains the carcass.
Overlay
Well-Known Member
If you had taken your dog with you with a thermal and steadied up a bit there is a good chance you would have not have to had left wounded deer behind, the 5 p’s should have clicked in the early stages to avoid poor marksmanship and more time on finding the wounded deer would have helped with a dog
100% for your integrity on sharing the events but it could have worked out better
100% for your integrity on sharing the events but it could have worked out better
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Just read this post and the "observation" over again this a.m. I found it to be a candid and thought-provoking post which can be evidencd by the many responses. I think the long and short of it is that any professional stalker does take a chance when he takes guests out for deer - their marksmanship under pressure cannot be tested but he does what he can, initially at least. When you factor in human nature, mindset, physical abilities et al the chances of error in shot placement are incremental so the natural and in my humble opinion best option is to ask the client to aim for the largest target where any error/misjudgement is most forgiving - inevitably that is the shoulder/chest area. You can argue all day (wot - on SD?) over precisely where but that area is the biggest effective area by far on any living thing. It is no co-incidence that since for ever guests have been instructed to aim there - beyond that it is up to the guest - only they have the sight picture and only they have the finger on the trigger.
In relation to the use of a dog, in twenty five years of "guesting" I have never had a stalker bring a dog with him on the day - period. It may well be best practice and easy to say after a shot goes wrong but how many stalkers, professional or otherwise, take a dog everytime?
Sooo, thank you DW for your post, as said above and in my earlier response, you can only do so much, after that the man behind the rifle assumes full responsibility and we all know that not every shot will be good.
In relation to the use of a dog, in twenty five years of "guesting" I have never had a stalker bring a dog with him on the day - period. It may well be best practice and easy to say after a shot goes wrong but how many stalkers, professional or otherwise, take a dog everytime?
Sooo, thank you DW for your post, as said above and in my earlier response, you can only do so much, after that the man behind the rifle assumes full responsibility and we all know that not every shot will be good.
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