This is why I don’t like chest shots.

[Tikka 270]

So where does the bullet end up then?

Quite often end up in the rumen, only ever had a couple end up in the haunch. If you need deer shot and that's the shot that presents itself you're going to take it.
Put it this way I've seen alot worse contamination from people that are trying to shoot deer side on and get them in the gut as they are not the best shots and others that are awful at gralloching and dressing out deer.

 

[Tikka 270]

Indeed that's what we should all strive for. But to avoid being preachy (as the OPs clients didn't do it!)- I'm trying to focus on positive solutions



I have heard an experienced ghili once advocate a front on chest shot in 243 knowing that the bullet will almost always stop before it hits the guts.

Perhaps it was with a v familior estate rifle/bullet combo- perhaps with other stipulations (range, deer size etc).

Exactly that, if the deers at 50m you're aren't going to shoot it in the chest front on you'd just shoot it in the neck or head, once the range starts increasing you start looking at the bigger target.

 

[HonestJohn]

If a deer is facing you, just move the point of aim from chest to a few inches under the chin, simple. But it’s a low margin for error shot so needs to be short distance and very sturdy rest. If there’s any angling/quartering, it’s relatively simple to visually calculate the correct angle on a chest shot to pit it through the heart/lungs and avoid the rumen/liver

 

[Pete6.5]

You say that but please explain how a front on shot at the chest is a “chest” shot? It’s up there with a “Texas heart shot” for simply getting a bullet into a deer, not one that anyone in their right mind would consider for anything anyone would want to gralloch or subsequently eat? Or am I missing something about your description?

I'm with you a front on chest shot is bad at best it's a roll of a dice chance of the bullet stopping before the guts. It might of worked with a bullet that breaks up quickly but with the design of lead free bullets that retain almost 100 percent of wait it's a very poor shot position.

 

[Tikka 270]

I'm with you a front on chest shot is bad at best it's a roll of a dice chance of the bullet stopping before the guts. It might of worked with a bullet that breaks up quickly but with the design of lead free bullets that retain almost 100 percent of wait it's a very poor shot position.

Very true, I wouldn't be overly keen now with full frontal shot after changing to copper, before with lead I wouldn't think twice

 

[DavyG]

Yes very few issues, no one I know wouldn't shoot a deer in the chest front on.

 

[Tikka 270]

And how would you know you clown, if you've deer that need shot you get them shot unless you go out one Saturday a month and gawp at a roe deer then go home. Vast majority are obviously chest/shoulder shot but if a deers standing facing you it's getting the bullet

 

[deerstalker.308]

And how would you know you clown, if you've deer that need shot you get them shot unless you go out one Saturday a month and gawp at a roe deer then go home. Vast majority are obviously chest/shoulder shot but if a deers standing facing you it's getting the bullet

But if it’s front on when would you not neck it under the chin? Why would you write off a carcass or at the very least risk it? That defies logic. Sorry, but it really does. Any bullet that doesn’t write of the carcass would be luck, nothing more.
And no, this one doesn’t gawp at roe, 2+ tonnes of good quality venison presented to the game dealers in the last month…..

 

[HonestJohn]

Let’s just agree, sticking one straight in the chest frontally is not good shot placement if you have any inclination towards retaining the meat, it’s that simple. Unless of course, it’s wanting to eat you or gore you.

 

[Tikka 270]

But if it’s front on when would you not neck it under the chin? Why would you write off a carcass or at the very least risk it? That defies logic. Sorry, but it really does. Any bullet that doesn’t write of the carcass would be luck, nothing more.
And no, this one doesn’t gawp at roe, 2+ tonnes of good quality venison presented to the game dealers in the last month…..

Yes you could neck it and quite often do but if the only shot presenting itself is in the front of the chest and you want to get deer killed you will. Each to their own choices though. Good for you, probably a similar amount in October to myself.
I'd certainly be less inclined to now with this caliber and copper bullet.

 

[devon deer stalker]

What happens in the field, stays in the field.... no need for this thread really is there?

 

[ejg]

I do understand where Dunwater is coming from, head neck shots do have their place. At the end of the day it is not only the problem that chest shot deer run somewhat but they run much further with the wrong bullet/speed/cal choice. It is exactly what got the 6.5x55 a bad name in Ireland for shooting sika at last light in rough terrain. In many places a deer that runs even say 100yds might cross a road or jump a fence into lands where one cannot go to retrieve etc. We often shoot in similar conditions. Our Sika are not very big and many game bullets are just too hard, especially some Euro wild boar/big game ammo. One reads of similar problems in Germany with Roe deer being shot with heavy & slower bullets from 8x57, 30-06 etc. Bullets often don't have time or enough resistance to expand properly. Often a 22-250 with varmint bullet does a better job.
I prefer a 308 with the old 168A-Max for Sika in rough terrain. Chest shot Sika might run but mostly not more than 30-40m. At last light I would way prefer the 308 over my 6.5CM. Daytime I use the CM because I like the rifle.
When it comes to accuracy I am a bit wary of the shooting sticks in heavy cover or high grass. They work great on the lawn but moving these cumbersome sticks in high grass is very awkward mostly ending up with a shooting position that is forced on target or under good tension which is not good for accuracy. I for one don't shoot well with them, at shorter range I prefer off-hand.
edi

 

[JH83]

Sika are tough buggers, I’ve personally had some heartbreaking follow ups, hours upon hours of hands and knees searching for pin pricks of blood. I now exclusively pin, neck, or leave them!

With regards marksmanship I wonder sometimes about the trend for kipplaufs, especially in reasonably pokey calibres such as those mentioned. A 5.5lb unmoderated (presumably) rifle in 7x65 might be the reserve of a very good/confident rifleman, they won’t help flinching and certainly not seeing shot reaction. Lovely little things no doubt but not what I’d choose for everyday deer management.

 

[Mungo]

Having read the OP several times, I’m not sure this has anything to do with chest shots per se. This seems to have a lot more to do with what reads like slightly rushed shots by clients in unfamiliar conditions, under the eye of an unsympathetic guide who was putting them under pressure, didn’t have a dog and who persisted with an unsuccessful approach given the situation.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

And how would you know you clown, if you've deer that need shot you get them shot unless you go out one Saturday a month and gawp at a roe deer then go home. Vast majority are obviously chest/shoulder shot but if a deers standing facing you it's getting the bullet

And how would you know you clown, That would get you a fist sandwich in a pub. Keep it polite.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Sika are tough buggers, I’ve personally had some heartbreaking follow ups, hours upon hours of hands and knees searching for pin pricks of blood. I now exclusively pin, neck, or leave them!

With regards marksmanship I wonder sometimes about the trend for kipplaufs, especially in reasonably pokey calibres such as those mentioned. A 5.5lb unmoderated (presumably) rifle in 7x65 might be the reserve of a very good/confident rifleman, they won’t help flinching and certainly not seeing shot reaction. Lovely little things no doubt but not what I’d choose for everyday deer management.

To me kipplaufs are designed to be ideal to be carried a lot and then shot off a rucksack prone as is the normal method on chamois hunting with 250 metre shots more the norm.

 

[HonestJohn]

With regards marksmanship I wonder sometimes about the trend for kipplaufs, especially in reasonably pokey calibres such as those mentioned. A 5.5lb unmoderated (presumably) rifle in 7x65 might be the reserve of a very good/confident rifleman, they won’t help flinching and certainly not seeing shot reaction. Lovely little things no doubt but not what I’d choose for everyday deer management.

7mm's pokey? have you tried DG/big game calibres? Muir's girlfriend eat's 7mm rifles for breakfast

I think this could all be summarised with:
a. visitors should have tried/practised before the outing off sticks and with the rifles they used/borrowed
b. thought should have been given into the bullet selection in regards of shot placement and the visitors should have been aware of this (ie. don't lung shoot a deer with a barnes monolithic for example)
c. clarity on shot placement expectations, better rules on game standing broadside perhaps and agreeding on bullet placement say, through shoulders
d. booze was mentioned, that's fun and great, but a recipe for disaster both from ethical shooting perspectives, and risk of accidents

Regarding thermal - not my thing really, don't blame the OP for not having one.
Regarding dogs - nice to have, not a 'must', if your tracking skills are excellent, you can recover almost anything. That said, if you can't, then don't leave it, either fetch your trained dog from wherever it is, or call a tracking service - don't leave the deer thinking you just couldn't find it or it 'probably will be ok with 3 legs as they're tough buggers and all that' - ethics and morals come in here, but also public perception of our sport if walkers/locals see/find wounded deer.

OP probably has realised by now how his next outing with visitors can be improved on, and that's fine, we're not all pro's from day 1, and there's nothing wrong with being open and honest about bad experiences, what's important is taking feedback and one's own lessons' and imbedding them into future practises.

 

[Smokedude]

Forgive me if Ive missed it but mind if I ask what type of sticks you shoot off? I use the Trigger sticks (which I find good) But they do up down movement. Still not as good as shooting off the top of a pack. Did they sling rap?
Like to also know what 7mm bullet heads and load? Again may have missed that. Even the best ammo fails.
You got this lot moving lol 6 pages

 

[Ratel]

I do understand where Dunwater is coming from, head neck shots do have their place. At the end of the day it is not only the problem that chest shot deer run somewhat but they run much further with the wrong bullet/speed/cal choice. It is exactly what got the 6.5x55 a bad name in Ireland for shooting sika at last light in rough terrain. In many places a deer that runs even say 100yds might cross a road or jump a fence into lands where one cannot go to retrieve etc. We often shoot in similar conditions. Our Sika are not very big and many game bullets are just too hard, especially some Euro wild boar/big game ammo. One reads of similar problems in Germany with Roe deer being shot with heavy & slower bullets from 8x57, 30-06 etc. Bullets often don't have time or enough resistance to expand properly. Often a 22-250 with varmint bullet does a better job.
I prefer a 308 with the old 168A-Max for Sika in rough terrain. Chest shot Sika might run but mostly not more than 30-40m. At last light I would way prefer the 308 over my 6.5CM. Daytime I use the CM because I like the rifle.
When it comes to accuracy I am a bit wary of the shooting sticks in heavy cover or high grass. They work great on the lawn but moving these cumbersome sticks in high grass is very awkward mostly ending up with a shooting position that is forced on target or under good tension which is not good for accuracy. I for one don't shoot well with them, at shorter range I prefer off-hand.
edi

To be quite honest IMHO it's all in the mind. If you are competent and confident in what you are using you will kill them.
When across the water in the Wicklow mountains I used a 22/250, my friend used a 5.6x57 and my neighbour used a .22 Hornet. We all killed Sika, so called Red and Hybrids without even thinking, is it the right bullet, calibre or whatever.
The main things were, is it in the right spot and presenting the target I want.
Kipplhauf rifles are great if you don't mind the recoil in the larger calibres but they are an acquired taste.

 

[Tikka 270]

And how would you know you clown, That would get you a fist sandwich in a pub. Keep it polite.

Terrifying prospect. I'm afraid when someone says you are talking bollocks when in fact you are talking facts, the deserve to be called a clown, I have regularly shot deer full frontal as do friends with no I'll effects, as I've stated though I won't be keen to with now with copper bullets.