This is why I don’t like chest shots.

[VSS]

Terrifying prospect. I'm afraid when someone says you are talking bollocks when in fact you are talking facts, the deserve to be called a clown, I have regularly shot deer full frontal as do friends with no I'll effects, as I've stated though I won't be keen to with now with copper bullets.

If you shoot a deer full frontal, and there are no ill effects, that means you've missed

 

[Tikka 270]

If you shoot a deer full frontal, and there are no ill effects, that means you've missed

Very true

 

[Mungo]

If you shoot a deer full frontal, and there are no ill effects, that means you've missed

Not always - though it is risky.

High speed, frangible bullet (like a .243 ballistic tip), put quite high in the chest often won’t go past the diaphragm. Though you risk losing loin.

I’m generally happy with a frontal shot if I’m sure I can put it where the neck joins the chest.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Terrifying prospect. I'm afraid when someone says you are talking bollocks when in fact you are talking facts, the deserve to be called a clown, I have regularly shot deer full frontal as do friends with no I'll effects, as I've stated though I won't be keen to with now with copper bullets.

Just not how to write to strangers imo.

 

[Tikka 270]

Just not how to write to strangers imo.

And writing talking bollix is? We're all big boys and girls, I'm sure they will get over it and possibly forgive me

 

[Bowland blades]

The money in the carcass is the saddle and the haunches. Many dealers wont knock the money down for their better suppliers at all for lost shoulders etc.
I would rather look for a beast with a none instant plough into the ground hart / lung shot than one with a missing jaw or broken esophagus etc . I feel to take clients out and tell them high neck or brain shots only would be very bad for business. Shooting among forestry requires a dog on hand or close by as crawling hands and knees tracking blood via torch light ( pine needles all down the back of your neck to your Butt crack) is seriously a right royal PITA

 

[Heym SR20]

If you don’t want clients messing up shots, then don’t take clients out, don’t accept their money, tips, banter, help or the satisfaction of helping them get their stag.

If you want max money from the game dealer shot in the head - with all the risks that entails.

If you are to be shooting in replanted forestry then recovering dead animals will always be a challenge and a access to a good dog is a pre requisite. And often you will pass up deer as they will be just too difficult to recover.

 

[Dunwaters]

You say that but please explain how a front on shot at the chest is a “chest” shot? It’s up there with a “Texas heart shot” for simply getting a bullet into a deer, not one that anyone in their right mind would consider for anything anyone would want to gralloch or subsequently eat? Or am I missing something about your description?

I suspect you shoot/guide more deer shot in a week than I do in a year so I'm genuinely trying to learn here-

Given that accuracy/shot placement was only "adequate"- and the chest shot is the biggest kill zone on a deer- what solution/alternative kill zone do you propose ?

As far as I can see- the only alternative is a neck/head shot- which along with a % of dear dropping on the floor, and some clean misses- will lead to a significant number of horrific woundings.

Very happy to be educated here

A front on chest shot is not one I’d take myself but …the bullet clipped the front of the shoulder and headed south taking out the top of the heart and both lungs, there was a little green matter in the cavity but only a few flecks, the bullet didn’t exit and I didn’t look for it. We got that one. I call it a chest shot because that’s where it went, just above the sternum, right where you’d put the knife to bleed it.
Personally I’d never/almost never use that shot placement on anything I plan to eat, it comes with an almost 100% guarantee of a wasted carcass, but that’s what happened, the man shot the deer in “the chest”.
Just like he’d been trained to do.
Since the debacle I’ve been racking my brain trying to work out what went wrong, we did have a debrief and the guy that lost 2 swore holes in pewter pots that he’d aimed low to break the offside shoulder, it looked to me like he’d hit what he aimed at.
The placement was “ adequate” by which I mean it was good enough and should have resulted in a recovered animal, but not this time, which is mostly down to the thickly covered broken ground they got into. Had they been anchored on the spot I wouldn’t be writing this but I’d be surprised if any of those animals is much more than 200M from where we last saw it.
The chest shot is promoted as being the only ethical placement on a deer, best practice an all that, but it seems to me that the chest is a fairly large area with lots of smaller specific zones in it and there are few clearly defined markers for those zones on the surface of the deer, the zones also migrate quite a bit depending on relative angles.
So while I have no doubt that a solid hit in the chest will kill any deer just about every time, I also have no doubt that it can take a while and that the deer can put a lot distance between you before it does.
That, after all, is why we invented tracking hounds.

So in circumstances similar to the one above, I’m personally going to shoot for the red shaded area, if someone else is doing the shooting I’ll encourage them to do it too and I’ll have the dog at heel just in case.
If the deer shows signs of leaving, any sign, I’ll send the dog or shoot again or both.
Other than that theres not much more that I can do, except pray fervently until I’m standing over the creature shaking hands and “ Waidmansheiling” like I actually mean it.

 

[Dunwaters]

So where does the bullet end up then?

Generally in its ass, with an almighty mess between where it started and where it finished up.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Generally in its ass, with an almighty mess between where it started and where it finished up.

And that’s ok?

 

[deerstalker.308]

And that’s ok?

Sorry read your lengthy post above now

 

[deerstalker.308]

A front on chest shot is not one I’d take myself but …the bullet clipped the front of the shoulder and headed south taking out the top of the heart and both lungs, there was a little green matter in the cavity but only a few flecks, the bullet didn’t exit and I didn’t look for it. We got that one. I call it a chest shot because that’s where it went, just above the sternum, right where you’d put the knife to bleed it.
Personally I’d never/almost never use that shot placement on anything I plan to eat, it comes with an almost 100% guarantee of a wasted carcass, but that’s what happened, the man shot the deer in “the chest”.
Just like he’d been trained to do.
Since the debacle I’ve been racking my brain trying to work out what went wrong, we did have a debrief and the guy that lost 2 swore holes in pewter pots that he’d aimed low to break the offside shoulder, it looked to me like he’d hit what he aimed at.
The placement was “ adequate” by which I mean it was good enough and should have resulted in a recovered animal, but not this time, which is mostly down to the thickly covered broken ground they got into. Had they been anchored on the spot I wouldn’t be writing this but I’d be surprised if any of those animals is much more than 200M from where we last saw it.
The chest shot is promoted as being the only ethical placement on a deer, best practice an all that, but it seems to me that the chest is a fairly large area with lots of smaller specific zones in it and there are few clearly defined markers for those zones on the surface of the deer, the zones also migrate quite a bit depending on relative angles.
So while I have no doubt that a solid hit in the chest will kill any deer just about every time, I also have no doubt that it can take a while and that the deer can put a lot distance between you before it does.
That, after all, is why we invented tracking hounds.
View attachment 279417
So in circumstances similar to the one above, I’m personally going to shoot for the red shaded area, if someone else is doing the shooting I’ll encourage them to do it too and I’ll have the dog at heel just in case.
If the deer shows signs of leaving, any sign, I’ll send the dog or shoot again or both.
Other than that theres not much more that I can do, except pray fervently until I’m standing over the creature shaking hands and “ Waidmansheiling” like I actually mean it.

Good post.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

To be quite honest IMHO it's all in the mind. If you are competent and confident in what you are using you will kill them.
When across the water in the Wicklow mountains I used a 22/250, my friend used a 5.6x57 and my neighbour used a .22 Hornet. We all killed Sika, so called Red and Hybrids without even thinking, is it the right bullet, calibre or whatever.
The main things were, is it in the right spot and presenting the target I want.
Kipplhauf rifles are great if you don't mind the recoil in the larger calibres but they are an acquired taste.

What weight bullets were you using in the hornet?

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Very true

I've shot a few deer front on and never had an issue. Don't know why so many are arguing that point. Bullets still disrupting the same organs it would if you shot it broadside. Sure it might hit the rumen but not the end of the world. Especially is you're not selling the carcass

 

[muddy42]

Words fail - see sketch(es).

Home | Wild Deer Best Practice Guidance

bestpracticeguides.org.uk

Yes. I know not everyone agrees with the best practice guides, but I think they are spot on in terms of anatomy and shot placement. Take a look, the upper neck and head are tiny and mobile targets. I avoid them unless I am very close or its absolutely necessary.

 

[Ratel]

What weight bullets were you using in the hornet?

I wasn't, but my pal was using 45 gr Hollow points as did I on Fallow in the late fifties.

 

[JH83]

7mm's pokey? have you tried DG/big game calibres? Muir's girlfriend eat's 7mm rifles for breakfast

I think this could all be summarised with:
a. visitors should have tried/practised before the outing off sticks and with the rifles they used/borrowed
b. thought should have been given into the bullet selection in regards of shot placement and the visitors should have been aware of this (ie. don't lung shoot a deer with a barnes monolithic for example)
c. clarity on shot placement expectations, better rules on game standing broadside perhaps and agreeding on bullet placement say, through shoulders
d. booze was mentioned, that's fun and great, but a recipe for disaster both from ethical shooting perspectives, and risk of accidents

Regarding thermal - not my thing really, don't blame the OP for not having one.
Regarding dogs - nice to have, not a 'must', if your tracking skills are excellent, you can recover almost anything. That said, if you can't, then don't leave it, either fetch your trained dog from wherever it is, or call a tracking service - don't leave the deer thinking you just couldn't find it or it 'probably will be ok with 3 legs as they're tough buggers and all that' - ethics and morals come in here, but also public perception of our sport if walkers/locals see/find wounded deer.

OP probably has realised by now how his next outing with visitors can be improved on, and that's fine, we're not all pro's from day 1, and there's nothing wrong with being open and honest about bad experiences, what's important is taking feedback and one's own lessons' and imbedding them into future practises.

Tried 375, 458 win and 338 lm and all were fine, I wasn’t talking about me though, I’m merely saying I think a 5-6lb unmoderated rifle in anything reasonably potent isn’t the best recipe for consistent accuracy, or for anyone who isn’t pretty experienced.

 

[Mungo]

A front on chest shot is not one I’d take myself but …the bullet clipped the front of the shoulder and headed south taking out the top of the heart and both lungs, there was a little green matter in the cavity but only a few flecks, the bullet didn’t exit and I didn’t look for it. We got that one. I call it a chest shot because that’s where it went, just above the sternum, right where you’d put the knife to bleed it.
Personally I’d never/almost never use that shot placement on anything I plan to eat, it comes with an almost 100% guarantee of a wasted carcass, but that’s what happened, the man shot the deer in “the chest”.
Just like he’d been trained to do.
Since the debacle I’ve been racking my brain trying to work out what went wrong, we did have a debrief and the guy that lost 2 swore holes in pewter pots that he’d aimed low to break the offside shoulder, it looked to me like he’d hit what he aimed at.
The placement was “ adequate” by which I mean it was good enough and should have resulted in a recovered animal, but not this time, which is mostly down to the thickly covered broken ground they got into. Had they been anchored on the spot I wouldn’t be writing this but I’d be surprised if any of those animals is much more than 200M from where we last saw it.
The chest shot is promoted as being the only ethical placement on a deer, best practice an all that, but it seems to me that the chest is a fairly large area with lots of smaller specific zones in it and there are few clearly defined markers for those zones on the surface of the deer, the zones also migrate quite a bit depending on relative angles.
So while I have no doubt that a solid hit in the chest will kill any deer just about every time, I also have no doubt that it can take a while and that the deer can put a lot distance between you before it does.
That, after all, is why we invented tracking hounds.
View attachment 279417
So in circumstances similar to the one above, I’m personally going to shoot for the red shaded area, if someone else is doing the shooting I’ll encourage them to do it too and I’ll have the dog at heel just in case.
If the deer shows signs of leaving, any sign, I’ll send the dog or shoot again or both.
Other than that theres not much more that I can do, except pray fervently until I’m standing over the creature shaking hands and “ Waidmansheiling” like I actually mean it.

If you're with someone you don't know well, I'd be wary of encouraging them to take that shot. The lethal target is narrow and mobile. It's much easier to wound with that shot than with a chest shot, especially with a deer in thick winter coat. As someone on here once said, it's like trying to hit a hosepipe wrapped in an old carpet.

A genuine chest shot may lead to runners, but it'll almost always be dead within a minute, even if you don't find it. The shot above can give all sorts of wounds, from nasty grazes to knocked out wind pipes that take hours or days to die. It's fine for experienced people who are sure of the shot and the conditions. It's a liability for excited clients under pressure.

As you're discovering, what you might be capable of when on your own is often not what others are when you're standing next to them.

 

[griff]

So where does the bullet end up then?

Without doubt it will puncture the rumen and contaminate the carcass,if you are lucky it won't exit the via the haunch, scrap either way..

 

[deerstalker.308]

Without doubt it will puncture the rumen and contaminate the carcass,if you are lucky it won't exit the via the haunch, scrap either way..

I think my question was intended to be rhetorical but I’m glad I’m not alone!