Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
There does appear to be confusion about what is listed on sites, shown on the configurator and what is actually available.
Barrel lengths, twist rates, actions, effects on accuracy??? 🥴
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Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
That's down to the type of person you are. I'm not in to swapping and changing and so unlikely to want to sell on.
I anticipate that I won't have issues buying/making/getting the ammunition that I will require.
I have been round the houses deciding on the callibre and whilst it may not suit you, it suits my requirments.
badmolassesaccident
Well-Known Member
OP, you are thinking too much. 8 inches is a standard twist rate for a 6.5mm bullet, just use that.
Twist rate only matters if it is too long and your bullet isn't stable, or too short and your bullet cannot withstand the centrifugal force and breaks apart mid-flight. 8 inches is a happy value for a 6.5.
Heavy bullets need a faster twist and slow bullets need a faster twist. But 8 inches in a 6.5 will do everything, unless you do something exceptionally unusual. The only exception is that there are reports of 147ELDMs blowing up mid flight when fired from a 6.5PRC. 147ELDMs have a very thin jacket and a 6.5PRC can over-spin them. I think (but not sure) that Hornady may have messed with them so this no longer happens.
I'd also say you don't need a custom rifle. Although as pointed out below, you can reuse the bits if you want a different rifle. But unless you feel like spending a more cash up front, you don't really need a custom rifle. Stalking and 300-ish do not require a ultra accurate rifle; a factory rifle will do fine.
You will need a magnum bolt face for the PRC.
Twist rate only matters if it is too long and your bullet isn't stable, or too short and your bullet cannot withstand the centrifugal force and breaks apart mid-flight. 8 inches is a happy value for a 6.5.
Heavy bullets need a faster twist and slow bullets need a faster twist. But 8 inches in a 6.5 will do everything, unless you do something exceptionally unusual. The only exception is that there are reports of 147ELDMs blowing up mid flight when fired from a 6.5PRC. 147ELDMs have a very thin jacket and a 6.5PRC can over-spin them. I think (but not sure) that Hornady may have messed with them so this no longer happens.
I'd also say you don't need a custom rifle. Although as pointed out below, you can reuse the bits if you want a different rifle. But unless you feel like spending a more cash up front, you don't really need a custom rifle. Stalking and 300-ish do not require a ultra accurate rifle; a factory rifle will do fine.
You will need a magnum bolt face for the PRC.
6pt-sika
Well-Known Member
I bought a POS Savage that came in the shop used in 6.5 PRC the things got a carbon steel 22 or 24 inch barrel I forget which . A Tupperware stock and some cheap scope . I took the scope off and sold it in the shop and mounted a Athlon 4-16 as well as swapping out the trigger . Gun came with a box of factory and a box of once fired brass . I played with it shooting the factory stuff , then resized all . Also bought a set of dies , shell holder and some Hornady 143 grainELD seconds . Tried them with RL-25 at 100 yards also tried Nosler 140 BT’s also with RL-25 anyway I ended up with a max or right at max load for both bullets that kept three in .2 MOA . Killed a deer with the gun in 2021 and was pretty much over it . My 6.5 Sherman Short Magnum with the same bullets will get about 150 more fps and it’s on a 700 action which I prefer . Anyway point being you could buy an El Cheapo Savage manipulate it some and have a fine shooter for not much initial outlay .
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Before going too far you need to decide on:
1) what type of bullets you want to use. This will in many ways dictate twist rate.
2) what sort of velocities you want to achieve. This will dictate amount of powder and thus cartridge and to some extent barrel length as well as cartridge overall length.
3) action type. Pretty much any action type with good Gunsmithing can give more than good enough accuracy. With most of the readily available bolt actions making sure that all the surfaces etc are true abd square, barrel is properly seated and the whole lot properly bedded will result in a good shooting rifle. How this achieved is another matter entirely. Choice of action is very much down to personal taste. I have used very accurate custom based rifles built on Rem 700 action from a scrap rifle that cost less than £100. I know others who use Tikkas, Sako’s etc. I would love to build a rifle on left handed Mayfair 98 Action. Would it be any more accurate or functional - no. Would it be a nicer classic type rifle - absolutely, but I would spending a few thousand just on the action.
A lot of action choice is down to ergonomics. Do you like loading from a detachable magazine, or do you load from the top. Are you happy with trigger blocking safety, or do you prefer it blocking firing pin. And will it be a hunting rifle or a range shooting rifle etc etc.
4) And most importantly find a gunsmith that shares your vision. If somebody builds tacticool rifles, absolutely no point is asking him to build a classic blued steel and walnut. And vice versa.
Going back to Twist Rates for each cartridge the standards are defined on the SAAMI or CIP drawings.
However once a SAAMI or CIP spec is in place manufacturers can’t change the specification, as there will be rifles out there built to that spec, that need feeding with cartridges built to that spec.
This is why we constantly see new cartridges being introduced. So take the 6.5 PRC. This is specked with a 1 in 8 twist. This a new development taking into account latest thinking on bullets, powders etc. It pretty much mimics the old 264 Win Mag, but this uses a 1 in 9 twist, so probably cannot use the long high BC 147gn bullets of the PRC.
You could probably get 6.5 PRC type performance out of a 6.5x55 - but the latter is a 120 year old cartridge and there will be rifles still in use and probably not sensible to run old rifles at the sort of pressures required to spit out a 147gn bullet at close to 3,000 fps, hence development of a new cartridge.
1) what type of bullets you want to use. This will in many ways dictate twist rate.
2) what sort of velocities you want to achieve. This will dictate amount of powder and thus cartridge and to some extent barrel length as well as cartridge overall length.
3) action type. Pretty much any action type with good Gunsmithing can give more than good enough accuracy. With most of the readily available bolt actions making sure that all the surfaces etc are true abd square, barrel is properly seated and the whole lot properly bedded will result in a good shooting rifle. How this achieved is another matter entirely. Choice of action is very much down to personal taste. I have used very accurate custom based rifles built on Rem 700 action from a scrap rifle that cost less than £100. I know others who use Tikkas, Sako’s etc. I would love to build a rifle on left handed Mayfair 98 Action. Would it be any more accurate or functional - no. Would it be a nicer classic type rifle - absolutely, but I would spending a few thousand just on the action.
A lot of action choice is down to ergonomics. Do you like loading from a detachable magazine, or do you load from the top. Are you happy with trigger blocking safety, or do you prefer it blocking firing pin. And will it be a hunting rifle or a range shooting rifle etc etc.
4) And most importantly find a gunsmith that shares your vision. If somebody builds tacticool rifles, absolutely no point is asking him to build a classic blued steel and walnut. And vice versa.
Going back to Twist Rates for each cartridge the standards are defined on the SAAMI or CIP drawings.
However once a SAAMI or CIP spec is in place manufacturers can’t change the specification, as there will be rifles out there built to that spec, that need feeding with cartridges built to that spec.
This is why we constantly see new cartridges being introduced. So take the 6.5 PRC. This is specked with a 1 in 8 twist. This a new development taking into account latest thinking on bullets, powders etc. It pretty much mimics the old 264 Win Mag, but this uses a 1 in 9 twist, so probably cannot use the long high BC 147gn bullets of the PRC.
You could probably get 6.5 PRC type performance out of a 6.5x55 - but the latter is a 120 year old cartridge and there will be rifles still in use and probably not sensible to run old rifles at the sort of pressures required to spit out a 147gn bullet at close to 3,000 fps, hence development of a new cartridge.
Jamie,
TBH, I've gone with the available information, maybe I should go an stick a rod down the barrel, and confirm the twist !
Before I decided on which barrel length to choose, I put various bullet weight/barrel lengths into Quickdata, but I was 99% certain I would load something circa 140gn, probably the ELD-X 143, because it works so well in my 6.5CM.
According to QL, with the 22" barrel, I could achieve Pmax, on, or very close to a "barrel time" node. The longer 24.5" barrel meant using a lower node, that negated the benefit of the longer barrel, but suited a lighter 120gn bullet, which I didn't want to use.
WARNING: My load is on the warm side. QL shows the load over PMax, & I occasionally get a very slight witness mark from the ejector. Use common sense !
Lapua brass, measured volume 68.4cc. ELD-X 143gn, set 2.950". 59.2gn's of RL26, BR2 primer.
QL predicted 3003fps, Lab Rada 3070fps. Higher than predicted is not uncommon.
6pt-sika
Well-Known Member
Really the only gun I posses that required a special twist was the 6mm-06 I built a couple years ago . I bought a Hawk Hill Custom 1:7.5 barrel specifically because I wanted to shoot the long Berger 115 VLD Hunting Match bullet . And it works about as well as I anticipated .
Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
I was going to - I was only actually asking about actions
Needs/wants??? I want to finalise the spec and will then see what is out there, but key criteria is accurate, robust and light. Not worried about the costs. Unlikely to ever change it - I've had my shotgun for 40 years, my daily driver car for 20 years, it if works I'll keep it. I
Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
95gn vmax up to 143 or 147gn
Not sure of specifics, was going to work backwards from the bullet.
Yes, seen quite a variation in action costs hence wondering how much of a difference they make assuming you have a top notch barrel and everything has been bedded properly.
Hunting rifle. Prefer swappable magazines. Not too fussed on safety, the one on my Howa 1500 works well enough.
Yes, they are a mixed bag. Need to make up my mind first.
Thanks
Save your cash on a custom and buy two new off the shelf rifles. (woodland) stalking and foxing requires different setups- short and light versus long and heavy, and that's even before you think about scopes/nv/thermal. Your stalking rifle is fine for a chance close encounter with a fox.
Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
No. I have used a single rifle for years and want to keep with that arrangement. I only change the scope and round to stay legal when up in Scotland.
Do you have any input on the original question about actions?
Malxwal
Well-Known Member
300-400 yards is sniping, not hunting. So, you'll be putting a lot of rounds through your chosen rifle/chambering combo learning drops and drifts.Thanks, Useful info. Will look up that calculator.
Purely hunting, but able to get out to 300-400yards.
Prefer to swap magazines.
Well obviously I am a crack marksman and all ammo is 100% consistent, hence just asking about the barrels and actions
Jamie020
Well-Known Member
Warm side!? Ha. I’m not sure I’d want it any warmer!
With your COAL at 2.950 and 59.2gr is the load compressed? Surprised the bullet fits in the case to be fair
That helps explain the numbers though if you’re putting 59.2gr of RL-26 inside. Hornady indicate 57gr is max load for RL-26 and that’ll push a 143 ELD-X out of a 26” barrel around 3,150fps.
Being able to nearly achieve that out of a 22” barrel is pretty incredible.
RL-26 is slow burning, does QuickLoad show 100% burn rate out of your 22” barrel? Or is it a bit of a flamethrower?
Agree if you’re working up your loads with caution and looking for pressure signs along the way some will overlook the data published by manufactures.
I’ve been meaning to try QuickLoad for a while, will have to get a copy and experiment!!
Thanks for your data
Jvoelcker
Well-Known Member
If you say so. Would putting 0-400 yards be easier for you to digest?
Shouldn't you always?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
One challenge with the PRC (peoples republic of china?) is that it is a short action cartridge with a Magnum size case head / body - ie 0.532” diameter as opposed to .470” of the 308, 243, 270 etc.
In the UK there will be very few short action magnum faced actions about. You will inevitably need to find a good 308 / 243 donor and have bolt face and extractor opened up. And I expect work will be needed on mag box, feed rails etc to get it to feed.
One good friend had exactly this done on an old Tikka 595 and he is delighted with the end result. Deer less so.
Malxwal
Well-Known Member
I don't need to digest anything, you're obviously very experienced and a very good shot.
A Tikka T3 action will be perfectly adequate and as light as they come - it's probably worth comparing any custom options with this benchmark and assessing whether it's worth the considerable extra cost for very little practical gain. If you prefer the bottom metal and magazine options that a Remington 700 based custom action offers then go with that.
You seem to know what barrel you want. Choose a stock and magazine / bottom metal that you want then that will narrow down your choice of action.
You seem to know what barrel you want. Choose a stock and magazine / bottom metal that you want then that will narrow down your choice of action.
OK, sure
Barrel Length - You preferred barrel length is a series of massive compromises. Will you fit a moderator and if so what weight and type? If so you'll want shorter for stalking / ease of carrying / mounting and longer for the type of foxing distances you're talking about, where every fps counts. But you reload so can fine tune things. Somewhere in between maybe?
Actions - Sorry I don't have much to say about this. All modern mauser-style bolt actions work really well.
Twist Rate - I'd recommend Googling this where it is explained better than I can. Plus there are calculators. How I understand it is that this is not a compromise, its blank or white, either a twist rate will stabilize a bullet of a given length and speed or it won't. Generally the standard twist rates are that way for a reason, manufactures know they will stabilize the range of ammo for a particular calibre. BUT longer copper bullets (for a given weight) has changed things slightly.
I spoke to a few aswell, like you say, some, 1 in particular, was very arrogant. I ended up going with dave wilde, very pleasant to talk to, and listened to what I was after.
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