Recreational Stalking in Forestry and Land Scotland/Tilhill

[TH4]

Lot of people who don't work as a forester/ranger or for an estate that stalk and have not got any qualifications but still produce good carcases and know what they are doing. With all due respect a DSC1 ticket does not make somebody a superstalker, experience does. I have seen a few so called professional stalkers in Scotland and England that have all the paperwork but produce carcases that look like they were gralloched by a terrier.

 

[slider]

Lot of people who don't work as a forester/ranger or for an estate that stalk and have not got any qualifications but still produce good carcases and know what they are doing. With all due respect a DSC1 ticket does not make somebody a superstalker, experience does. I have seen a few so called professional stalkers in Scotland and England that have all the paperwork but produce carcases that look like they were gralloched by a terrier.

Yes, but we live in a world where (paper) qualification is King. This is the World of blame and litigation. If a landowner or game dealer has a problem with a stalker that as poisoned people or caused harm in other ways and that landowner hasn't done their due diligence by getting (paper) proof that the stalker is competent then that landowner is in deep do do

 

[TH4]

That is right but it does not detract from my point that because you have a piece of paper it does not make you competent.

 

[griff]

That is right but it does not detract from my point that because you have a piece of paper it does not make you competent.

Just like a driving license...

 

[slider]

That is right but it does not detract from my point that because you have a piece of paper it does not make you competent.

But it does detract from the the original post which was about getting leases in state or commercial forestry.

An electrician won't get a job with a home builder without a bit of paper that says he is competent.
A car mechanic won't get a job with a main dealer unless he has a bit of paper that says he is competent.
I am not able to undertake surveys and valuations that are acceptable to lenders unless I have a bit of paper that says I am competent.
Likewise a stalker won't get a lease with a state or commercial forestry company unless they have a bit of paper that says he is competent.

Granted there are people in all fields that could do a particular job, but without that bit of paper they are confined to working for bit players in the market, who risk thier own businesses in the event of a problem!

I will go further to say that in just about every industry those working or providing a service need to undertake continuous training and improvement. We don't have that in DSC.

 

[TH4]

But it does detract from the the original post which was about getting leases in state or commercial forestry.

An electrician won't get a job with a home builder without a bit of paper that says he is competent.
A car mechanic won't get a job with a main dealer unless he has a bit of paper that says he is competent.
I am not able to undertake surveys and valuations that are acceptable to lenders unless I have a bit of paper that says I am competent.
Likewise a stalker won't get a lease with a state or commercial forestry company unless they have a bit of paper that says he is competent.

Granted there are people in all fields that could do a particular job, but without that bit of paper they are confined to working for bit players in the market, who risk thier own businesses in the event of a problem!

I will go further to say that in just about every industry those working or providing a service need to undertake continuous training and improvement. We don't have that in DSC.

In the original post the guy says he has DSC and was asking if tillhill etc let out sporting leases so not quite sure what you are on about. You can have all the paperwork you like but if the end product is crap then you won't keep the job long

 

[slider]

In the original post the guy says he has DSC and was asking if tillhill etc let out sporting leases so not quite sure what you are on about. You can have all the paperwork you like but if the end product is crap then you won't keep the job long

My point is that if you don't have the paperwork work you are not going to be considered by Tilhill etc.
You need to get in the door to be able to show you can do the job, or not as the case may be.

 

[Stevie/P]

Out of all the activities I’ve been involved with over the past sixty years deer stalking leases are by far the most corrupt I’ve ever encountered.

 

[Andy - Fish]

Out of all the activities I’ve been involved with over the past sixty years deer stalking leases are by far the most corrupt I’ve ever encountered.

110% Agree

 

[rem284]

I have seen people who have the required bits of paper with regards to deer stalking. Like anything that requires certification, some of them are better than others because some people will care a lot about what they do and some people will careless. However they have shown at sometime they done enough to be certified. The same can be said about uncertified people who have experience, some will careless than other but thet haven't got proof to say at sometime they done it to a certain standard. The other thing is they may have decades of experience and believe they are doing everything well, when they aren't because they don't know any better

I have known someone who bragged that he didn't need any bits of paper because he had something like 50 years of experience. Some of the practices he done used to make me cringe. Amongst them was poor gralloching and as he said "awk, nothing wrong with a bit of green chutney on the meat". "Whats the chance of hitting someone if you shoot at deer on the skyline". There is more but I think that's enough to get the picture

The fact is most forestry companies and other landowners will require potential lease holders to have certification

 

[homer]

That is right but it does not detract from my point that because you have a piece of paper it does not make you competent.

Its just the world we live in, nowadays!

 

[User00040]

I will go further to say that in just about every industry those working or providing a service need to undertake continuous training and improvement. We don't have that in DSC.

Out of all the activities I’ve been involved with over the past sixty years deer stalking leases are by far the most corrupt I’ve ever encountered.

We have people (trade members in fact) selling syndicate places (i.e sub-let) forestry blocks on which they are supposed to control deer numbers. They are not only re-couping costs but making up the cost of the lease many times over.

The open hill has been hammered over the years, estates taking up much of the fire from SNH/NatureScot as their open range Red deer numbers are no secret, deer management groups under pressure all the time with the order of 'shoot more deer' coming from above with thinly veiled threats of Section 7 (we shoot your deer, you pay us). Helicopter counts used to keep them honest.

Look at where the properly organised deer management groups are, they are predominantly based around the Highlands/West Coast:



Why are deer numbers increasing when more deer than ever are being shot?

Answer- Roe, Red and Sika in Forestry blocks, Roe in urban/peri-urban areas. East coast land ownership being so fragmented that a deer maangement group is not viable to organise.

What does this mean for the recreational stalker?

Firstly, it's not a viable way to control deer in the method mentioned at the start of this post. You are not going to manage 200+ deer a year off a lease where syndicate members are doing 800 miles (yes, really) in a round trip from their home to the lease. Let alone 500-700 a year which are real cull numbers off 5k hectares. Will some members be happy to pay the same price as a 'local' who takes 80% of the cull? Or maybe the local does not pay at all?

I doubt it!

So do consider location before getting a sydicate place, if the bloke selling the stalking is suddenly under pressure due to a thermal drone count (helicopter counts not viable in heavy cover forestry, drones now readily available), then your money will be taken and you could be binned mid-lease even if you have done your best to spend time on the ground. Ask to see the lease agreement before signing on.

Scottish sporting estates have had their shakeup and had to change trajectory. There will be big changes coming (already in motion) for the future of private forestry. FLS have a target of 2-7 deer per KM² , private will soon be expected to match this or else no grants given.

Best be careful!

 

[David Barker]

The problem with FLS grants being held back is the desire to plant trees out ways the desire to manage them after there in the ground. Sure there are threats but on public ground no one cares. Many thousands of acres have been planted over local authority's across the central belt yet not one deer management plan includes the culling of deer.

 

[griff]

I thought that deer management was part of the grant?

 

[David Barker]

I thought that deer management was part of the grant?

Yes it is but i deer management plan need not include the culling of deer.

 

[griff]

Yes it is but i deer management plan need not include the culling of deer.

Really..

 

[NullMac]

That is right but it does not detract from my point that because you have a piece of paper it does not make you competent.

Ooh I said something similar the other day re marksmanship and people tried to hand me my ass. Failed mind, I have been called worse.

What was interesting, was how many ways they found to ignore the point.

 

[NullMac]

We have people (trade members in fact) selling syndicate places (i.e sub-let) forestry blocks on which they are supposed to control deer numbers. They are not only re-couping costs but making up the cost of the lease many times over.

Yeah, one of them got very tetchy when I told him I was happy to help him with his cull but he would have to pay me not the other way around. He is just a bandit. How are the cull returns verified ??

 

[slider]

The problem with FLS grants being held back is the desire to plant trees out ways the desire to manage them after there in the ground. Sure there are threats but on public ground no one cares. Many thousands of acres have been planted over local authority's across the central belt yet not one deer management plan includes the culling of deer.

FLS don't award grants.

 

[David Barker]

FLS don't award grants.

They did and the woods are still growing unchecked from deer Damage. The Forestry Grant scheme as it know now is still looked over for the Scottish government by the same people that worked for the FC FES Not to long ago. Goal posts on the move to help hide the incompetence of most the Scottish departments managing our land in one way or another.