New/replacement Shotgun Barrels cost

[AlexD]

I know the thread is quite old but it seems to be the most recent on this topic of replacement barrels.

If the reason for replacement is simply they have more than a ½ choke then the fix is simple and cheap: just ream out the choke. This should be quick and cheap with any gunsmith: if you are an engineer one can do it oneself using an adjustable reamer (hand driven of course to avoid chatter), followed up by polish using bronze wire wool. Dimensions are simple to look up. A ¼ choke has the same effect with steel shot as a ⅞ choke with lead so you are probably wanting to remove most of the choke constriction.

If on the other hand you need to replace the barrels because they are thin barrels, as are some of mine, then it is either a sleeve or an expensive replacement. I am working on a sleeve for some nice old Whitworth fluid pressed steel barrels that were thin even when new. Now, 130 years later, they are 20.6 thou thick 9" from the breech (and given the Whitworth steel they are probably OK down to 18 thou) but at 14" from the breech they are a mere 12 thou! That is just 0.3mm! Just remeasured them last night to start work on the tool to drill the barrels: with barrels that thin I do not fancy the risk of using a normal gun drill on them so doing a fixture than can be driven by a CNC spindle motor. Will take a few months before they are ready to go off for reproofing as spare time is limited just now, but when done will post again on here. Yes I am stuck with 2 ½" cartridges but for the things I use it for that is fine.

 

[cjm1066]

Every time you fire a shot you wear the barrels.

We used to use lead with a fibre wad, we now enclose the shot in a shotcup, that is all that is contact with the barrels. I suspect paper and the various plastic will cause different wear rates, but after 60 years of use this doen't seem to be reported on so is it a concern? As for what's in the shotcup, as its not in contaact with the barrel does it matter, the only issue is damage to tight chokes and the recomendations are well known.

 

[Bowland blades]

leave it 2 3/4 " open the chokes to half ( steel patterns tighter by a fair way ) Chokes opened up is nothing much of a job ! Dont send bigger than number 4 steel .
I have done this to many guns BUT get an expert to look over the gun and listen to what they say !
Re-proof is of course a far higher charge its your choice if you submit it
3 1/2" 42 gram loads from such a gun means re-proof and frankly it could / likely will fail and that's the end of the gun. These loads are brutal on recoil in my heavy sxs steel proofed sxs and in my pump guns . The ten bores handle them a lot better or my Gas / recoil operated auto

 

[Tim.243]

I know the thread is quite old but it seems to be the most recent on this topic of replacement barrels.

If the reason for replacement is simply they have more than a ½ choke then the fix is simple and cheap: just ream out the choke. This should be quick and cheap with any gunsmith: if you are an engineer one can do it oneself using an adjustable reamer (hand driven of course to avoid chatter), followed up by polish using bronze wire wool. Dimensions are simple to look up. A ¼ choke has the same effect with steel shot as a ⅞ choke with lead so you are probably wanting to remove most of the choke constriction.

If on the other hand you need to replace the barrels because they are thin barrels, as are some of mine, then it is either a sleeve or an expensive replacement. I am working on a sleeve for some nice old Whitworth fluid pressed steel barrels that were thin even when new. Now, 130 years later, they are 20.6 thou thick 9" from the breech (and given the Whitworth steel they are probably OK down to 18 thou) but at 14" from the breech they are a mere 12 thou! That is just 0.3mm! Just remeasured them last night to start work on the tool to drill the barrels: with barrels that thin I do not fancy the risk of using a normal gun drill on them so doing a fixture than can be driven by a CNC spindle motor. Will take a few months before they are ready to go off for reproofing as spare time is limited just now, but when done will post again on here. Yes I am stuck with 2 ½" cartridges but for the things I use it for that is fine.

You should put some picture up as lots would like to see them including myself....

 

[AlexD]

You should put some picture up as lots would like to see them including myself....

Attached pics are a couple I took yesterday when measuring the barrel wall thickness.

The setup is I drilled a brass rod to take an 8mm steel ball bearing as a hard press fit, zeroed a dial gauge on it that has 0.01mm resolution, checked the calibration using a calibrated set of feeler gauges, then slid the barrels over the rod with the ball to measure the barrel wall thickness. Pics were not intended to be published, but just keep a record as the numbers were slightly different to those measured by a well known gun smith: the smith measured one of the barrels at 13 thou and I got 11.9 thou 14" from the breech.

Barrel bore was measured using a three point digital probe along its length (working from both ends as the bore gauge is only 14" long). I also measured the outside dimensions using a vernier, to check the bore + thickness = OD.

 

[Tim.243]

Attached pics are a couple I took yesterday when measuring the barrel wall thickness.

The setup is I drilled a brass rod to take an 8mm steel ball bearing as a hard press fit, zeroed a dial gauge on it that has 0.01mm resolution, checked the calibration using a calibrated set of feeler gauges, then slid the barrels over the rod with the ball to measure the barrel wall thickness. Pics were not intended to be published, but just keep a record as the numbers were slightly different to those measured by a well known gun smith: the smith measured one of the barrels at 13 thou and I got 11.9 thou 14" from the breech.

Barrel bore was measured using a three point digital probe along its length (working from both ends as the bore gauge is only 14" long). I also measured the outside dimensions using a vernier, to check the bore + thickness = OD.

My friend has a long gauge that is set to a ring gauge and as you pass it down the barrel you read the dti like when you check a car block for wear
Very good

 

[AlexD]

My friend has a long gauge that is set to a ring gauge and as you pass it down the barrel you read the dti like when you check a car block for wear
Very good

Sounds like the same sort of bore gauge. Mine's not a Mitutoya but works the same way: three point bore gauge with digital readout and can be zeroed on cal rings. Does the bore diameter only, hence the slightly more elaborate fixture in the photos to measure the barrel wall thickness along its length.

Next step is I need to finish the fixture to bore out the barrels to 19.2mm without distorting the walls - that is going to take some time. Rather than glue I plan to heat the barrels to 120 degrees in an industrial oven (an environmental chamber) and put the liners in liquid nitrogen to get about 30 thou of shrinkage. To save the liners getting stuck half way, I have a bronze bar I need to machine to fit tight inside the liner so there is a lot of thermal mass in the liner assembly. Finally I need to find someone with a laser welder that is tall enough to fit a pair of barrels in: the one I have access to is too short - it does lovely welds though even on crazy mixes like aluminium plates welded to stainless steel!

 

[NullMac]

Be careful.

I spoke with the gunmakers John Dickson & Son. I was in for something else but asked the guy if the barrels were a different steel to get to the HP rating. His chat was the pressures on the breech face were a lot higher and it wasn't really about the barrels as much as the action.

Not my area, and a bit of a surprise to me but if that is the case it would suggest you would be better off trading in for a new gun.

 

[AlexD]

Small worlds.

John Dickson and Son they are absolutely right: to convert from a gun proofed for lead or standard steel to HS is likely a REALLY major job. Far better to buy a new gun. However I don't need a a fleur de lys stamp on this one as I plan keep it on standard steel - historic shotguns like this only take a 2 ½" cartridge anyway. After sleeving, the re-proof spec will be as is.

The action is fine and the breech area is fine, as is the quality of the steel. The craftsmanship is beautiful and worth some effort to preserve. The only issue that prevents the gun being used is the barrel wear.

In precision shooting they treat barrels as consumables so after two or three thousand rounds, replace them. Surprisingly, a custom made precision F-Class barrel is a lot less than a pair of tubes for a shotgun. So for shotguns, it is roll one sleeve's up time or take it to someone that can do a sleeve that is not detrimental to the gun's lightweight and balance. We have some fantastic materials available to us now that were a dream to the gunsmiths 100 years ago: super-duplex steel liner, or titanium liner, or something even more interesting.

 

[Heym SR20]

If you want a gun that will shoot high speed steel and take the full pressure of high speed steel you really need a gun that is designed from the ground up to shoot such cartridges.

Exactly the same as in days of old if you wanted to shoot heavy loads. A gun built for 1 1/4oz of shot from a 2 3/4” cartridge was a lot stouter built with thicker action fences that a 2 1/2” game gun built fir 1 1/16oz of shot. The competition pigeon and wildfowling guns for 1 1/2oz were stronger still.

It makes little sense shooting heavy cartridges in a light gun. Technically you can, but recoil will be higher, you will shoot it loose much quicker and it won’t kill any better.

Same with high speed steel. Its good at the outer limits of what steel shot is used for. I use a 3” high speed steel out of a Franchi Affinity semi-auto - it’s designed for such cartridges - on the foreshore where ranges tend to be long.

But for normal shooting, including ducks on flight ponds, I just use standard steel. It’s half the price of high speed stuff and works well if I put bird in the pattern. And when wildfowling, I always carry standard steel and use this when ducks drop into splashes etc and ranges are shorter.

Or an alternative way of looking at it. You have a nice sweet shooting 308. Yes you can rechamber it to use a 300 Short Magnum cartridge. You also need to machine out the action face. But for what purpose - it will kick the snot out of you and give you an extra 30odd metres of point blank range.

Much better to have a purpose built long range rifle with appropriate length and weight of barrel and stocked to suit the cartridge.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

People are getting excited about steel….

You old game gun will take a standard 30/32 #4 or #3 just fine
There are plenty of 2 3/4” steel cartridges around

The dimensions you are talking about removing from a choke to go from 3/4 to 1/2 is approximately 5 thou!!
Your plastic (or bio) wad is much much thicker than that, and softer than both shot and barrel
Yes your pressure may increase but not to suddenly blunderbuss your barrels if they are not already faulty

You will get significantly more than 5thou variance in cartridge components and barrel bore dimensions from gun to gun!,


I would not be putting 3 1/2” high performance steel in the high 40 and 50gr range through any old over and under regardless of its barrels
Most unpleasant and it will rattle like a bag of spanners before you know it if it’s a regular thing
Pressure is greater at the action, hence the reason everything is thicker and stronger back there

Get a semi auto and get it fitted

 

[AlexD]

@Heym, I am not wanting this gun to shoot high speed steel. Standard standard steel only. As you rightly say, for normal shooting standard steel is fine.

The thread started with someone wanting new shotgun barrels - the reason not being clear but apparently it had a fixed choke that was too tight for steel.

Any shotgun that shoots lead, can shoot standard steel shot, so long as the choke is not tighter than ½ choke and the barrels are not Damascus steel. If the fixed choke is tighter than ½ choke, then solution is simply to ream it out to the right size - no barrel replacement needed.

As you know, a HS steel shotgun is proofed at 1200 bar, a gun that shoots lead or standard steel is 850 bar (after 1989). Standard steel is limited to about a 30g load (as the proof mark is 1⅛, the gun is limited to 32g even when first proofed). Putting in more than 30g loads means pressures go into HS territory. I agree with you, lightweight 12 bores go with light loads, so 21g or 24g and then ladies such as my daughter can shoot it without complaint about the recoil.

My comment on F class barrels was purely that even competition level 0.308 barrels are tiny fraction of the cost of a pair of new shotgun barrels. For example I can get a competition grade F-Class barrel for between £500 and £1400, compared to £3,000 to £20,000 for shotgun rebarrel. There are a lot of antique shotguns that cannot be shot with lead or steel, because the barrels are worn out (too thin), and it is not economic to replace them as their barrels are in the top end of the price range I mentioned.

So ... I am doing a wee project using a couple of these beautiful antique shotguns (two the same, one is the reference, the thinner one is in my hands and is being sleeved first), hence interest in searching for anyone else who has done this to learn what not to do, in particular avoiding affecting the handling and sleeving without glue.

The sleeve I am using is super-duplex stainless which has the same tensile strength as the Whitworth Fluid Steel that forms the main barrel. I am also experimenting with a titanium sleeve as the laser welder does weld it to steel, amazingly, - so far just did a test where I laser welded the titanium to steel and to aluminium (have nice pics I can post), and will get a scrap gun to try out the titanium before trying it on a beautiful gun. While super duplex is non-corroding, titanium corrodes really fast but develops the oxide coating instantly that stops it corroding further. Longthorne do titanium barrels so pumping shot through it appears to work. Titanium would enable the balance of the gun to be unaffected by putting in a sleeve: the weight of metal removed+eroded is the the same as the sleeve weight.

So far I have checked the barrels and gun thoroughly and done some sleeving experiments on the temperature differential and welding. I have made the sleeves but not started boring out the barrel yet which is only 0.3mm thick to start with, as it requires a special tool or a lot of care and patience with successive reamers - the quick method of using a gun drill would likely deform the side walls. Starting on that tool this weekend. I intend to cut the barrel to a 0.2mm wall thickness i.e. a 19.05mm bore in this case, before inserting the sleeve to get as much sleeve thickness as possible. Bore is currently 18.8mm, and plan to reduce to 18.4mm with the sleeve, reaming to that after the 0.9mm thick sleeve is inserted. Rather than using glue to fix the sleeve, I will use temperature differential to insert it then laser weld the ends. Will see how this goes ...

 

[Heym SR20]

@Heym, I am not wanting this gun to shoot high speed steel. Standard standard steel only. As you rightly say, for normal shooting standard steel is fine.

The thread started with someone wanting new shotgun barrels - the reason not being clear but apparently it had a fixed choke that was too tight for steel.

Any shotgun that shoots lead, can shoot standard steel shot, so long as the choke is not tighter than ½ choke and the barrels are not Damascus steel. If the fixed choke is tighter than ½ choke, then solution is simply to ream it out to the right size - no barrel replacement needed.

As you know, a HS steel shotgun is proofed at 1200 bar, a gun that shoots lead or standard steel is 850 bar (after 1989). Standard steel is limited to about a 30g load (as the proof mark is 1⅛, the gun is limited to 32g even when first proofed). Putting in more than 30g loads means pressures go into HS territory. I agree with you, lightweight 12 bores go with light loads, so 21g or 24g and then ladies such as my daughter can shoot it without complaint about the recoil.

My comment on F class barrels was purely that even competition level 0.308 barrels are tiny fraction of the cost of a pair of new shotgun barrels. For example I can get a competition grade F-Class barrel for between £500 and £1400, compared to £3,000 to £20,000 for shotgun rebarrel. There are a lot of antique shotguns that cannot be shot with lead or steel, because the barrels are worn out (too thin), and it is not economic to replace them as their barrels are in the top end of the price range I mentioned.

So ... I am doing a wee project using a couple of these beautiful antique shotguns (two the same, one is the reference, the thinner one is in my hands and is being sleeved first), hence interest in searching for anyone else who has done this to learn what not to do, in particular avoiding affecting the handling and sleeving without glue.

The sleeve I am using is super-duplex stainless which has the same tensile strength as the Whitworth Fluid Steel that forms the main barrel. I am also experimenting with a titanium sleeve as the laser welder does weld it to steel, amazingly, - so far just did a test where I laser welded the titanium to steel and to aluminium (have nice pics I can post), and will get a scrap gun to try out the titanium before trying it on a beautiful gun. While super duplex is non-corroding, titanium corrodes really fast but develops the oxide coating instantly that stops it corroding further. Longthorne do titanium barrels so pumping shot through it appears to work. Titanium would enable the balance of the gun to be unaffected by putting in a sleeve: the weight of metal removed+eroded is the the same as the sleeve weight.

So far I have checked the barrels and gun thoroughly and done some sleeving experiments on the temperature differential and welding. I have made the sleeves but not started boring out the barrel yet which is only 0.3mm thick to start with, as it requires a special tool or a lot of care and patience with successive reamers - the quick method of using a gun drill would likely deform the side walls. Starting on that tool this weekend. I intend to cut the barrel to a 0.2mm wall thickness i.e. a 19.05mm bore in this case, before inserting the sleeve to get as much sleeve thickness as possible. Bore is currently 18.8mm, and plan to reduce to 18.4mm with the sleeve, reaming to that after the 0.9mm thick sleeve is inserted. Rather than using glue to fix the sleeve, I will use temperature differential to insert it then laser weld the ends. Will see how this goes ...

Sounds interesting and fun work. Fundamentally cost of new shotgun barrels for old guns is really a function of the amount of hand labour that is required in their manufacture, in particular the hand fitting of the barrels to the action.

In terms of handling, most guns when sleeved have very thin barrel walls - and thus are light. Start off with 30 thou walls and over the years they are down to below 20 thou and you have lost a good proportion of the metal.

Sleeve on new barrels of original weight and of course it will handle differently. Challenging is working out the original weight.

Most guns will be marked with original bore or bore dimensions, depending on when they were first proofed. And bore dimensions is taken at 9” from the breech.

Bores will have opened up over time and use. And the bores may well have been cleaned up. All of this is measurable, but only reference point will be the original proof marks.

What is not recorded is if the barrels have been restruck at some point on the outside. The barrel walls under the ribs won’t have been touched when restruck, but how you measure this thickness without taking the barrels apart I do not know.

Biggest challenge these days with sleeved barrels is still finding sufficient skills to strike the barrels by hand in the same way that original barrels were made. These skills are dying or have died out. Those that have the skills need to charge good money for their time, and even then probably don’t make a huge amount of money in doing so. Can you get similar levels of fine wall thickness with machines and on a repeatable basis.

if you go back to the time when these old guns were built, guns were expensive. Even a simple boxlock would command best part of years salary for most.

These days a Berreta Silver Pigeon is a months salary for most. A Turkish gun can be had for a weeks salary.

Rifle barrels by contrast are cheap, as pretty much all the profiling etc is done on a lathe. So labour input is minimal compared to hand draw filing a fine shotgun barrel.

 

[JTO]

leave it 2 3/4 " open the chokes to half ( steel patterns tighter by a fair way ) Chokes opened up is nothing much of a job !

One of our wildfowling club members used to do it by wrapping emery cloth round a wooden dowel and spinning it with a drill.

 

[Bowland blades]

One of our wildfowling club members used to do it by wrapping emery cloth round a wooden dowel and spinning it with a drill.

Gun bodgers exist ! There is simply no way that would run concentric. Though i guided reamer by hand would. Far better cutting the barrel back , removing a small amount and measure adjust, measure adjust if you want a cheap quick fix . Of course if you working on something of real value get it off to the specialists but in these days when you can but a reasonable sxs for under £100 , who wants to pay the RFD transers and swallow a bill that will be more than the guns worth when finished .
I cut back an old 3" mosberg pump , it was built with RTO so it only fits 2 3/4 " factory through the action . i needed to cut about 1/2" ? off to get it to half , i rto to shoot 3" . Have to say its so waaaaay better build than modern mossberg pumps and has a real nice wood on it . Soldered on a proper barrel mounted sling connector, shot a lot of 3" number 3 36 gram loads through it , Barrel wall is about as thick as they ever made made them

 

[JTO]

Gun bodgers exist !

I was expecting something like that!
This chap worked on the gearbox of Britain's first nuclear submarine and made a hammerless 4-bore, using a barrel that came down with a Dornier bomber in WW2. He made a couple of hammerless side-by-side 12-bores also.

 

[AlexD]

Biggest challenge these days with sleeved barrels is still finding sufficient skills to strike the barrels by hand in the same way that original barrels were made. These skills are dying or have died out. Those that have the skills need to charge good money for their time, and even then probably don’t make a huge amount of money in doing so. Can you get similar levels of fine wall thickness with machines and on a repeatable basis.

That is true and part of the beauty of antique shotguns - incredible skills, making them a work of art.

Now there are new skills, new materials and a better understanding that can be manifest in better guns, e.g. the full barrel length forcing cones in the Beretta D11, or in repair of old guns. We should be able to make and fix a high tech sleeve that results in a gun that is better than new. These antiques can be used far beyond their expected life - so long as one is happy with 2½" cartridges (extending a chamber wrecks a gun's value and an extended chamber generally cannot be proofed, can't be sold or exported).

On sleeving experiments, attached is a pic of a weld in my grubby hands of a punched titanium sheet to ¾" OD 1mm WT aluminium tube. Both Super-Duplex stainless and titanium can be welded to Fluid Pressed steel in the same way allowing one to use any barrel sleeving material one likes.

 

[Bowland blades]

I was expecting something like that!
This chap worked on the gearbox of Britain's first nuclear submarine and made a hammerless 4-bore, using a barrel that came down with a Dornier bomber in WW2. He made a couple of hammerless side-by-side 12-bores also.

Should have got him to discuss it in person then eh ?

 

[JTO]

Should have got him to discuss it in person then eh ?

He's been dead over 20 years, as you might expect if he worked on building Dreadnought.