Where are we up to with the lead ban for rifles?

[billy_boyle_2010]

@Heym SR20 Interesting thanks

 

[Muirmains]

Right someone tell me are copper ammo expanding @ 250 or are we just shooting holes in the deer? I told it won’t expand at ranges like that. Re lead bullets make your own , I just staring to get the dies arranged to give it a blast. Is the foresters commission starting to demand lead free ammo, god the street round the corner for me still has lead water main into their houses. I always wanted a wood but if this is the way forward I just pay the neighbouring farmers the money instead of the commision

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Right someone tell me are copper ammo expanding @ 250 or are we just shooting holes in the deer? I told it won’t expand at ranges like that. Re lead bullets make your own , I just staring to get the dies arranged to give it a blast. Is the foresters commission starting to demand lead free ammo, god the street round the corner for me still has lead water main into their houses. I always wanted a wood but if this is the way forward I just pay the neighbouring farmers the money instead of the commision

Depends on bullets used - TTSX? Maybe but really on the edge of reliability unless it's @takboks swift.
Yew tree are cock on and are still doing admirably at distances far exceeding that. They're probably pretty safe to use to 600 yards.
The virtus are ok, they have different 'models' for different applications.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Depends on bullets used - TTSX? Maybe but really on the edge of reliability unless it's @takboks swift.
Yew tree are cock on and are still doing admirably at distances far exceeding that. They're probably pretty safe to use to 600 yards.
The virtus are ok, they have different 'models' for different applications.

If yew tree are expanding reliably at 5-600 yards they will be acting like a claymore full of nails at 100 yards IMO. Happy to be corrected but to expect sensible expansion at 50-600 yards- that's a heck of a range for a lead free bullet.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Right someone tell me are copper ammo expanding @ 250 or are we just shooting holes in the deer? I told it won’t expand at ranges like that. Re lead bullets make your own , I just staring to get the dies arranged to give it a blast. Is the foresters commission starting to demand lead free ammo, god the street round the corner for me still has lead water main into their houses. I always wanted a wood but if this is the way forward I just pay the neighbouring farmers the money instead of the commision

Take a look at the picture above

TTSX expand at 250 but not as well as they do at 100......

 

[hendrix's rifle]

If yew tree are expanding reliably at 5-600 yards they will be acting like a claymore full of nails at 100 yards IMO. Happy to be corrected but to expect sensible expansion at 50-600 yards- that's a heck of a range for a lead free bullet.

Given what I've seen at 400, I'd use them further quite happily. And no, they're no worse than a cup and core at 100 either with the usual caveat if you take a rib on the way in, then they can make a bit of a mess. I'd rather that though than an injured deer

 

[25 Sharps]

Right someone tell me are copper ammo expanding @ 250 or are we just shooting holes in the deer? I told it won’t expand at ranges like that. Re lead bullets make your own , I just staring to get the dies arranged to give it a blast. Is the foresters commission starting to demand lead free ammo, god the street round the corner for me still has lead water main into their houses. I always wanted a wood but if this is the way forward I just pay the neighbouring farmers the money instead of the commision

Have shot fallow at that range and out to just over 300 with yew tree, good fragmentation still and the deer still fall over.

 

[25 Sharps]

If yew tree are expanding reliably at 5-600 yards they will be acting like a claymore full of nails at 100 yards IMO. Happy to be corrected but to expect sensible expansion at 50-600 yards- that's a heck of a range for a lead free bullet.

Why will they be acting like a claymore?

They don’t behave in the same way as soft lead, which coupled with a thin jacket and high impact velocity break up into many small pieces. The yew tree have 3 petals that break off plus an aluminium tip on the TLR, that’s it, nothing more can break off. So hit a deer at 50 yards 3/4 break off the same as at 3/400 yards.

The first photo is a munti shot with my .280 at 212 yards with a lead (hunting not Varmint) bullet that left the muzzle at 3200 fps. Second is a munti shot with the same rifle at 30 yards, yew tree HP that left the muzzle at 3150 fps.

One carcass only fit for ferret food, the other tidy and went into the food chain.

 

[25 Sharps]

With the lungs you have a large number of very small arteries flowing through the lung tissue. Lungs are a spongy mass full of air. Both often provide little resistance to a bullet, this bullets often don’t expand well, especially if of stout construction.

With a lung shot the animal will die once the blood pressure lowers, and obviously the more damage, the more blood vessels are cut the quicker the bleed out. But in my experience lung shots either result in the animal standing stock still and swaying back and forth, eventually blood comes out of its nose and it falls over, or they run a good long way and then collapse dead - both after lungs have bled out.

Lung shots where the meatsaver shot. A nice soft fast bullet such an SST or a 243, 25-06 or 270 softpoint works pretty well. But you generally get a running animal. Put the same bullet further forward on a bigger animal and you loose a shoulder’s worth of meat.

I don’t like lung shots. There is little chance of taking out the nervous system and getting a collapse on the spot. I much prefer centre of body just under shoulder blade, ideally with animal slightly quartering away. I shot a mid sized stag the other night with this shot placement his head was down. Bullet entered through the back of the nearside shoulder, took out the aorta just above the heart, then smashed through the spinal column at the front of thoracic cavity and I found just under the skin on the far side.

Bullet is a 7mm 140gn RWS HIT copper monolithic. It arrived with 2,700 J of energy (according to box figures). Collapsed on the spot and kicked for a few moments - and of course it was on the edge of a ditch so fell into it - butchering I lost about 2” from the neck body junction.

And no issue with putting out the remains fir the eagles and other critters.

View attachment 330629

Hit in the spine with anything the deer will collapse on the spot.

 

[GunQuarter]

The problem with copper alloys, tungsten bullets etc is the cost of manufacture. Most current lead bullets are stamped/forged from wire into the jackets, you can't do that with most alternatives. With our Hortonium alloy, it can be extruded into wire and it can just replace the lead wire on current machines. Read about it here. Gunsmith Gun Repairs and Gun Engraving at Horton Guns

 

[Heym SR20]

Unless you’ve got a permission shooting for a deer cull, 20 rounds in a day starts adding up a bit!

20 rounds@ £4.50 is still only £90. Less than a tank of fuel for a pickup.

And even at 50p per kg from the game dealer costs are covered.

 

[Elmer fudd 1]

20 rounds@ £4.50 is still only £90. Less than a tank of fuel for a pickup.

And even at 50p per kg from the game dealer costs are covered.

All well and good if you own the deer you are culling, when you don't its a dry cost.

 

[Heym SR20]

Right someone tell me are copper ammo expanding @ 250 or are we just shooting holes in the deer? I told it won’t expand at ranges like that. Re lead bullets make your own , I just staring to get the dies arranged to give it a blast. Is the foresters commission starting to demand lead free ammo, god the street round the corner for me still has lead water main into their houses. I always wanted a wood but if this is the way forward I just pay the neighbouring farmers the money instead of the commision

It really depends on impact velocities. Fox and Peregrines are designed to still open at 1600 to 1700 fps. I have shot deer with those bullets and RWS at 200 plus and no issues whatsoever. Deer fall over dead.

I have had more issues with lead bullets expanding too much and not having the ability to penetrate the vitals, than I have had with monolithics not killing.

I have had a couple of red deer with a monolithic bullet just through the lungs taking a moment or two to fall over. One stood and swayed, the other ran 100 yards but both fell over within 20 odd seconds from impact. But I have had exactly the same with lead bullets.

 

[User00040]

Why will they be acting like a claymore?

They don’t behave in the same way as soft lead, which coupled with a thin jacket and high impact velocity break up into many small pieces. The yew tree have 3 petals that break off plus an aluminium tip on the TLR, that’s it, nothing more can break off. So hit a deer at 50 yards 3/4 break off the same as at 3/400 yards.

The first photo is a munti shot with my .280 at 212 yards with a lead (hunting not Varmint) bullet that left the muzzle at 3200 fps. Second is a munti shot with the same rifle at 30 yards, yew tree HP that left the muzzle at 3150 fps.

One carcass only fit for ferret food, the other tidy and went into the food chain.

View attachment 330813View attachment 330817

Shot placement is not the same on both carcasses. Are theg both entry holes?

 

[25 Sharps]

Shot placement is not the same on both carcasses. Are theg both entry holes?

No, both exits

 

[25 Sharps]

The problem with copper alloys, tungsten bullets etc is the cost of manufacture. Most current lead bullets are stamped/forged from wire into the jackets, you can't do that with most alternatives. With our Hortonium alloy, it can be extruded into wire and it can just replace the lead wire on current machines. Read about it here. Gunsmith Gun Repairs and Gun Engraving at Horton Guns

Looks good, but what is the cost of hortonium going to be against lead?

 

[HonestJohn]

Looks good, but what is the cost of hortonium going to be against lead?

And will it be made to shoot accurately and work like subs in 22lr? Air rifle pellets?

Screw the shotgun cartridges, there’s steel for that. It’s 22 and the springers I care about

 

[GunQuarter]

And will it be made to shoot accurately and work like subs in 22lr? Air rifle pellets?

Screw the shotgun cartridges, there’s steel for that. It’s 22 and the springers I care about

Its good to know you care Yes it works in 22 and can be used for air rifle pellets too.

 

[GunQuarter]

Looks good, but what is the cost of hortonium going to be against lead?

@25 Sharps it is more expensive. This is simple economics, not greed. Lead has been $2600 per ton since 2006. Every other element has gone up or in excess of inflation and we can't control that unfortunately. We will buy raw material at the best rate we can find and sell with a modest margin. We are only selling the Hortonium and we have nothing to do with powders, cases, primers and other manufacturing costs.

 

[Lee260]

@25 Sharps it is more expensive. This is simple economics, not greed. Lead has been $2600 per ton since 2006. Every other element has gone up or in excess of inflation and we can't control that unfortunately. We will buy raw material at the best rate we can find and sell with a modest margin. We are only selling the Hortonium and we have nothing to do with powders, cases, primers and other manufacturing costs.

Given today's prices. What is the price against lead? Quoting "it is more expensive" is not a way of understanding the cost implications.