HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[Liveonce]

Somewhere in the HSE documents I read that they do not expect people to give up shooting as a consequence of a total lead shot ban! If nothing else the lead debated has focused my thoughts and reviewed the shotguns I own.
I am fortunate enough to enjoy both frequent clay pigeon shooting and when necessary crop protection, live pigeon shooting over decoys.

I shoot 12gauge but also get a lot of satisfaction out of shooting my 28gauge, for which I home load cartridges.

I will continue to shoot lead shot for as long as legal to do so, however at that point (2 or within 5 years) I will call it a day for crop protection shooting as with the passing of every year at my age it gets harder to carry all the gear to the required spot.

I certainly will not be able to shoot clays as frequently as I do now with steel shot biodegradable cartridges priced as they are even at todays prices so then question the logic of continuing at all, so again will likely exit the sport.

If the ban comes in five years I hopefully will still be fit enough to continue with rabbits and foxes using the rifle, but possibly that will end also resulting in saving financially on BASC, CPSA membership, licences and GP fees.

Giving more time for fishing at the lake and possibly get an airgun for plinking.

Any hard feelings, at my age not really had the best of shooting over many years, pistols, rifles, shotguns and potentially health and HSE lead ban permitting still have five years so by then will probably miss the company and banter at the clay ground more than the actual shooting.

Enjoy your shooting while you can.

 

[terrier1]

On the contrary if lead is so toxic that it must be banned as you claim then surely it must apply to all uses? Perhaps the amazing thing is that when you buy lead at a builders merchant you don't have to sign the poisons register, an oversight by HSE & UK REACH it would appear.

If we had any shooting organisations that was interested in saving the future of shooting.
The argument of getting rid of lead water pipes and lead flashing would be a good point as the government would look at the cost this would incur and would affect a lot of people.

 

[StephenToast]

On the contrary if lead is so toxic that it must be banned as you claim then surely it must apply to all uses? Perhaps the amazing thing is that when you buy lead at a builders merchant you don't have to sign the poisons register, an oversight by HSE & UK REACH it would appear.

You've missed my point.

If the HSE believe lead to be poisonous they should ban it entirely without any derogations.

No matter what controls are put in place lead will still get into the environment. If it is banned for some applications and not others, i.e. still available people will abuse this. Smellydog has proved this already.

If it is not too poisonous to use for one application it isn't too poisonous to use for another and there should be no ban.

As far as human health is concerned it is up to the consumer to decide if they want to eat food containing lead.

 

[timbrayford]

You've missed my point.

If the HSE believe lead to be poisonous they should ban it entirely without any derogations.

No matter what controls are put in place lead will still get into the environment. If it is banned for some applications and not others, i.e. still available people will abuse this. Smellydog has proved this already.

If it is not too poisonous to use for one application it isn't too poisonous to use for another and there should be no ban.

As far as human health is concerned it is up to the consumer to decide if they want to eat food containing lead.

Ok fair enough, in the meantime I shall be taking up the plated shot issue with the HSE. Not that I have any great knowledge on it myself but it would appear that neither do they. If we are to have our civil liberties restricted let it be on the sound basis of genuine peer reviewed research rather than the conjectural "considered opinion ' nonsense which the public sector and politicians just love to indulge themselves with!

 

[terrier1]

We all know that lead is poisonous.
But as a lot of people have said on this forum where is the evidence that people have suffered from eating deer and game birds pigeon or rabbits. And where are all these birds that have died from eating lead shot. If there is going to be a ban on lead we all need to see the evidence.
A lot of shooter like myself have been shooting for well over 50 years and I have been eating game for all that time WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE.
And one of our biggest problem is shooting organisations are on board with going lead free which in my opinion will kill off shooting I am so glad I have had a good number of years shooting but I fear the next generation are doomed.

 

[StephenToast]

We all know that lead is poisonous.
But as a lot of people have said on this forum where is the evidence that people have suffered from eating deer and game birds pigeon or rabbits. And where are all these birds that have died from eating lead shot. If there is going to be a ban on lead we all need to see the evidence.
A lot of shooter like myself have been shooting for well over 50 years and I have been eating game for all that time WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE.
And one of our biggest problem is shooting organisations are on board with going lead free which in my opinion will kill off shooting I am so glad I have had a good number of years shooting but I fear the next generation are doomed.

Going lead free won't stop me shooting. I have a lad of 19 who also shoots deer on the farm, sometime pigeons. Won't stop him.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Shooters are a pessamistic bunch aren't they.

 

[HonestJohn]

Going lead free won't stop me shooting. I have a lad of 19 who also shoots deer on the farm, sometime pigeons. Won't stop him.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Shooters are a pessamistic bunch aren't they.

Very much, so much some might even call us pessimistic

 

[terrier1]

Going lead free won't stop me shooting. I have a lad of 19 who also shoots deer on the farm, sometime pigeons. Won't stop him.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Shooters are a pessamistic bunch aren't they.

Yes but I would like to choose what type of cartridge or bullets I shoot through my guns.
At this moment in time I know what range I can kill humanely with shot gun and rifle.
And by the way it will not stop me shooting either
It's not all doom and gloom. No It's people who have a strong opinion on freedom of choice.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Clearing out some paperwork and came across this.

Just over halfway done the first column quote

“No sound evidence, no change.”

Can @Conor O'Gorman produce the sound evidence that lead shot and bullets are dangerous to human health i.e. cause and effect?
What documentation or scientific paper states categorically that a person or persons has/have died from ingesting lead through eating shot game?
How many people over how many years have succumbed given the length of time lead has been used?

 

[Rewulf]

“No sound evidence, no change.”

BASC in 2015

New study supports BASC position on lead ammunition - BASC

The results of a new study by Australia’s National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) supports BASC’s position on lead ammunition: “no sound evidence, no change”.

basc.org.uk

'“It is not possible to conclude that lead was the direct cause of any of the reported health effects in individuals with blood levels less than 10 micrograms per decilitre. While the results from some studies indicate that blood levels less than 10 micrograms per decilitre may be associated with some health effects, the available cross section studies do not provide the type of convincing evidence that would enable public health experts and statisticians to make confident conclusions about cause and effect.”

Science, cats and the importance of context - BASC

Last week’s belated publication of the papers presented at the 2014 Oxford Lead Symposium saw claims that up to 100,000 wildfowl die each year in the UK due to lead poisoning. In actual fact, estimates posited that between 50,000 and 100,000 waterfowl could be affected and the report itself says...

basc.org.uk

'There is no new data to support a more widespread restriction on the use of lead shot.'

And yet, 5 years later, BASC decided this policy had to change , citing 'The evidence' , I have repeatedly asked Conor if there is new evidence, or they are using LAGs 'old' evidence, so far he has declined to reply (as usual) and called me an anti shooting troll.

The excuses of 'It was coming anyway' or 'The EU has told us to' doesnt wash.
Show us the evidence.

 

[terrier1]

And yet, 5 years later, BASC decided this policy had to change , citing 'The evidence' , I have repeatedly asked Conor if there is new evidence, or they are using LAGs 'old' evidence, so far he has declined to reply (as usual) and called me an anti shooting troll.

You will not get an answer from Conor. Just like none of the shooting organisations could not be bothered to consult their members on this important issue.
It would be a good idea to consult all their members now to be able to fight for what they want to happen with lead.

 

[Rewulf]

You will not get an answer from Conor. Just like none of the shooting organisations could not be bothered to consult their members on this important issue.

I think its a bit more than couldnt be bothered, they actively avoided the very idea of any consultation on the matter, and we can read into that what we will.
I actually asked Conor the other day on what he thought the result of any vote on 'Phase out of lead shot for live quarry' would be IF they BASC membership had got one.
As usual he went into silent mode.

It would be a good idea to consult all their members now to be able to fight for what they want to happen with lead.

If it didnt happen then , it certainly isnt happening now, but some kind of consultation among the membership would have been a handy bit of evidence to put toward the HSE consultation, but I think that ship has sailed.
Its just all about damage limitation now.

Whichever way it goes, all aspects of shooting will be changing, and not for the better.

 

[enfieldspares]

Show us the evidence.

This is why the call for non-lead went from a "no evidence" to an about face. Apply an old but still true test "Cui bono?" or "To whom is it a benefit?"



The "big bag" boys had to be protected, at any cost, from accusations that they were merely slaughtering animals for mere sport. So the narrative was addressed by saying that they were in fact providing food into the market. All well and good except that a major retailer in the UK didn't want lead and the export of game shot with lead to the EU became prohited.

Now the proper route, surely, would have been for these "big bag" shoots where the game was sold (rather than kept and all distributed to the beaters, the pickers up, the guns) would have been to put their own house in order and insist all used non-lead shot. But no that wasn't apparently ever considered. So in order to enable the claim to be asserted that ALL game in the UK was shot with non-lead shot everybody else would be thrown under the bus.

So there's your evidence REWULF. The "big bag" boys and the BGA wanted it to be able to protect what they did and all the rest of us, the farm shoot, the family shoot, the small syndicate shoot, the pigeon shooter and the walked up "rough" shoot all were collateral damage. But, hey ho, at least now the "big bag" boys can deflect the criticism that it's mere slaughter for sport.

A pity really that BASC didn't think to consult its members regarding its abrupt about face or, indeed, about its own members' money BASC put in the BGA.

 

[Rewulf]

Now the proper route, surely, would have been for these "big bag" shoots where the game was sold (rather than kept and all distributed to the beaters, the pickers up, the guns) would have been to put their own house in order and insist all used non-lead shot. But no that wasn't apparently ever considered.

Its also worth pointing out, that the money from shot game meat (whether lead or steel) is a drop in the ocean when it comes to the nitty gritty.
The real money is what people will pay for a days shooting pheasant , partridge and grouse, and its this market that needed protection.
A market BASC is heavily involved in.

 

[Liveonce]

indeed don’t forget, BASC put a substantial amount of money into the BGA.

BASC and the British Game Alliance (BGA) are delighted to cement further their partnership.

BASC has announced today it has provided a substantial support package to the BGA which includes financial backing, access to BASC staff expertise and a BASC council member to sit on the BGA board.

 

[Mike L]

And back to same old same old

 

[LuckyEddie]

And back to same old same old

BASC quote in the article.

 

[Rewulf]

And back to same old same old

Good input.
Why don't you try asking BASC directly why they never consulted the membership on lead?
Or don't you care enough?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Clearing out some paperwork and came across this.

Just over halfway done the first column quote

“No sound evidence, no change.”

Can @Conor O'Gorman produce the sound evidence that lead shot and bullets are dangerous to human health i.e. cause and effect?
What documentation or scientific paper states categorically that a person or persons has/have died from ingesting lead through eating shot game?
How many people over how many years have succumbed given the length of time lead has been used?

Here is a Q&A from Sporting Gun last year:

Has anyone actually died of lead poisoning by eating meat shot with lead?
We are not aware of any cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition, we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than only the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye. Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers’ bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby. For adults, there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of leukaemia, lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer.

Burning questions about the end of lead shot

Explore Burning Questions About The End Of Lead Shot with Shooting UK. Reliable updates and expert commentary on shooting and countryside law in the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[LuckyEddie]

Here is a Q&A from Sporting Gun last year:

Has anyone actually died of lead poisoning by eating meat shot with lead?
We are not aware of any cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition, we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than only the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye. Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers’ bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby. For adults, there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of leukaemia, lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer.

Burning questions about the end of lead shot

Explore Burning Questions About The End Of Lead Shot with Shooting UK. Reliable updates and expert commentary on shooting and countryside law in the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Did you read the Australian report posted earlier?

There is no conclusive evidence!

As far as I can see BASC and theoretical physicists are in the same situation - they know all about the subject but can do bu**er all to prove it exclusively and conclusively.