HSE asks for extension to timeline for lead ammunition review

You reminded me of something - as a kid in the early 1980s I used to melt down what I presume was lead on the gas cooker in the kitchen to make Prince Albert toy soldiers, often whilst something else was cooking on another hob for dinner. How times and awareness has changed and who knows what lies ahead for many of us and the research is catching up.


Lead pipes and what my ammo stockpile might be and all other manner of whataboutery is just deflecting from the elephant in the room - you just want the status quo on your use of lead ammunition - and that is fine - and if you have strength of belief in your position on lead ammunition then it is unclear to me why you are so evangelical about the issue - if others want to discuss other viewpoints or have moved onto non-lead shot for live quarry shooting and the reasons why that is their decision - and if the organisations are encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and the reasons why that is their decision - and for their members to hold them to account on that.
When one of your representatives was questioned why BASC supported the lead ban at a Young Farmers Meeting last month, his reply was “ Well we had to give the Antis something”.
I doubt all the members misheard the quote.?????
 
But you didn't call into question a post I made, you asked me a question, and I answered it and then I asked a very simple question back. If you want to be evasive about the organisation you are a member of and continue to focus on BASC instead then fair enough. It is rather curious though - at least to me!
It rather feels like you are trying to stifle dissent
 
When one of your representatives was questioned why BASC supported the lead ban at a Young Farmers Meeting last month, his reply was “ Well we had to give the Antis something”.
I doubt all the members misheard the quote.?????
Sounds a bit bizarre that TBH, as you must know from all these threads BASC does not support a lead ban, and I wonder who are these antis and what are they being given and by whom and why?
It rather feels like you are trying to stifle dissent
Well if that were the case I guess I am failing miserably on that front!
 
Was not so originally, and still on Express cartridges website, after the Fiocchi announcement.

edit to add, not totally against what you are trying to accomplish, however you should be open and honest about the situation, have you published the results of the recent survey you did?



View attachment 351583
Friday 6th March

Following our statement of the 28th February (below), we confirm that Lyalvale Express stands firm on all points.

Lyalvale Express were made aware to the announcement in the form of a single email over the weekend from the GTA. This is notconsultation, with the statement already written and signed.

We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue.

Lyalvale Express for over 30 years have been manufacturing shotgun cartridges, the expertise and experience in manufacturing the finest cartridges has provided us with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. We would have been pleased to have had opportunity to give help on the issue if we had been consulted.

We continue the task of improvement and development of alternative products benefiting the industry, sport and shooters alike.

We trust that this clarifies any remaining uncertainty regarding Lyalvale Express’s involvement.


Friday 6th March 2020

Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made. The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.
Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE.
The latest update from Fiocchi on alternatives to lead shot cartridges is here:

 
Conor where is the answers or comments to post number 73.
And you will notice that the cartridge manufacturers quote.

We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made. The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Is it a coincidence that BASC,s name comes up first because it looks to me that they are blaming BASC for this s##t storm.
 
More a complaint about the lack of definition over what constitutes a wetland than anything else
Yes, new lead shot restrictions have come into effect in the EU and the update is about the non-lead shot products available in that context and the promise of more in the pipeline. The photo at the top of the page is a new line of steel shot with biowads launched last year. Not sure how you could have missed it.
 
Conor where is the answers or comments to post number 73.
And you will notice that the cartridge manufacturers quote.

We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made. The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Is it a coincidence that BASC,s name comes up first because it looks to me that they are blaming BASC for this s##t storm.
That was February 2020 and various statements were made at the time - I am sure there are several threads on SD about that from that time - feel free to look them up - and I do not wish to rake over old history. That said, perhaps if you have a keen interest in this please contact them for clarification on their statement.

Here we are 4 years later and there have been many new non-lead products coming online from various cartridge companies here and overseas. The OP is about the HSE needing more time to review the volume of responses to its final consultation.

BASC's response to the HSE consultation, which also covers progress with the voluntary transition, is here:

 
Yes, new lead shot restrictions have come into effect in the EU and the update is about the non-lead shot products available in that context and the promise of more in the pipeline. The photo at the top of the page is a new line of steel shot with biowads launched last year. Not sure how you could have missed it.

The more in the pipeline mentioned are using Bismuth shot may be welcomed by a very few game shooters but hardly significant for the majority who shoot.
 
Yes, new lead shot restrictions have come into effect in the EU and the update is about the non-lead shot products available in that context and the promise of more in the pipeline. The photo at the top of the page is a new line of steel shot with biowads launched last year. Not sure how you could have missed it.
Maybe because I read the blurb rather than just look at pictures?
 
The more in the pipeline mentioned are using Bismuth shot may be welcomed by a very few game shooters but hardly significant for the majority who shoot.
I think you brought Fiocchi into this thread so perhaps have a chat with them? Also, if I may suggest so, perhaps look forwards for solutions rather into the past for problems?
 
Maybe because I read the blurb rather than just look at pictures?
TBH that is not very convincing. I think you just rushed it without taking it all in, so perhaps slow down and consider before you post? If you really do 'read the blurb rather than just look at pictures' then perhaps you might address comment #124 by @25 Sharps in this thread?

 
TBH that is not very convincing. I think you just rushed it without taking it all in, so perhaps slow down and consider before you post? If you really do 'read the blurb rather than just look at pictures' then perhaps you might address comment #124 by @25 Sharps in this thread?

No thanks
I did read the piece, you don’t have to believe me and I don’t care either way!
 
I think you brought Fiocchi into this thread so perhaps have a chat with them? Also, if I may suggest so, perhaps look forwards for solutions rather into the past for problems?
I only mentioned fiocchi in that the cartridge manufactures original statement on the Express website was after the announcement that Express had been acquired by Fiocchi, to validate wgst I had copied from the Express website.

I do look forward to the solutions provided they are fit for purpose.

Then as in many things in life we ignore the past (history) at are periil.

You have yet as far as I know to publish the results of your last survey.
 
and if the organisations are encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and the reasons why that is their decision - and for their members to hold them to account on that.
With respect Conor, whilst I was a member of BASC that release was very much akin to a knife in the back. I don't support it, I certainly wasn't asked if I supported it. Yet the decision by the team representing me didn't bother to ask and came up with frankly, a load of crap and caused a whole load of drama.
This isn't any form of attack on you as a person and I don't want you to take it that way, but the company you work for has damaged the shooting world and opened many doors for anti's to get in. I can't help but wonder where we would be if BASC didn't give that release... Especially with the seemingly change of opinion after the horse has bolted.
 
That was February 2020 and various statements were made at the time - I am sure there are several threads on SD about that from that time - feel free to look them up - and I do not wish to rake over old history. That said, perhaps if you have a keen interest in this please contact them for clarification on their statement.

Here we are 4 years later and there have been many new non-lead products coming online from various cartridge companies here and overseas. The OP is about the HSE needing more time to review the volume of responses to its final consultation.

BASC's response to the HSE consultation, which also covers progress with the voluntary transition, is here:

If I recall it correctly the shooting organisations collectively failed to consult both their memberships and the cartridge manufacturers before announcing the voluntary 5 year transition away from lead shot.

Unfortunately this timescale has proved to be unrealistic on a number of grounds, principally post covid component shortages, the war in Ukraine and lack of cost effective viable alternatives to the lead shot/fibre wad combination.

Whilst appreciating that there has been a massive propaganda campaign promoting steel shot I do not have any enthusiasm for using it. If it was ballistically superior surely it would have displaced lead shot in clay pigeon shooting competitions by now?

Realistically apart from expensive Bismuth there is no practical alternative available in my locality and the "new non-lead products coming online from various cartridge companies here and overseas" to which you refer are currently but a utopian dream!
 
I only mentioned fiocchi in that the cartridge manufactures original statement on the Express website was after the announcement that Express had been acquired by Fiocchi, to validate wgst I had copied from the Express website.

I do look forward to the solutions provided they are fit for purpose.

Then as in many things in life we ignore the past (history) at are periil.

You have yet as far as I know to publish the results of your last survey.
BASC has not published the survey results yet.
 
With respect Conor, whilst I was a member of BASC that release was very much akin to a knife in the back. I don't support it, I certainly wasn't asked if I supported it. Yet the decision by the team representing me didn't bother to ask and came up with frankly, a load of crap and caused a whole load of drama.
This isn't any form of attack on you as a person and I don't want you to take it that way, but the company you work for has damaged the shooting world and opened many doors for anti's to get in. I can't help but wonder where we would be if BASC didn't give that release... Especially with the seemingly change of opinion after the horse has bolted.
I respect your viewpoint and have no wish to change your view, just to provide facts and perspective where I can. In fairness it was nine organisations. And in BASC's case it was BASC Council members, who are democtratically elected from the membership, who made that decision and many other decisions since. That is how BASC functions and how WAGBI functioned. Nothing changed after 24 February 2020. It was not a law change. It was membership organisations making an annoucement on a voluntary initiative. There have been 4 years of consultation and plenty of opportunity to engage with BASC not least AGMs, people putting themselves forward as Council members, and voting in elections. Also responding to the HSE lead restriction proposal consultations (promoted by Brexit) which could result in legislative change. Several thousand people out of a million + shooters have engaged in those consultations. There is no change of opinion - BASC opposes the HSE proposals and has opposed all other legislative proposals for decades. Voluntary initiatives are nothing new and indeed times change. We have voluntary restraint on woodcock until migratory birds arrive. We have voluntary restraint on waterfowl and waders in severe weather. We have had voluntary moratorims on shooting curlew in NI and Greenland whitetfronted geese in Wales. There may be other examples I have forgotten. Now we have a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. I don't see how that has damaged shooting - what would be damagaing is the cliff edge of a sudden ban on any type of lead ammunition - and not sure what doors have been opened to the antis by a voluntary initiative - the antis have been campaiging for a complete lead ban for a long time. Hope that helps, but again its not to change your opinion, just my persepctive on events so far.
 
If I recall it correctly the shooting organisations collectively failed to consult both their memberships and the cartridge manufacturers before announcing the voluntary 5 year transition away from lead shot.

Unfortunately this timescale has proved to be unrealistic on a number of grounds, principally post covid component shortages, the war in Ukraine and lack of cost effective viable alternatives to the lead shot/fibre wad combination.

Whilst appreciating that there has been a massive propaganda campaign promoting steel shot I do not have any enthusiasm for using it. If it was ballistically superior surely it would have displaced lead shot in clay pigeon shooting competitions by now?

Realistically apart from expensive Bismuth there is no practical alternative available in my locality and the "new non-lead products coming online from various cartridge companies here and overseas" to which you refer are currently but a utopian dream!
I don't think anyone is talking of utopian dreams and there is a need to be realistic for sure.

In BASC's response to HSE we explained that there are 142 types of steel shot cartridges currently available, however there is a shortage in the supply of components such as powder. This issue has been brought on by the war in Ukraine. Military ammunition uses the same double based powders as some steel shot cartridges and the military have a priority over supplies, leaving domestic ammunition to utilise what is left.

Also we explained: There are currently 74 variants of 12 and 20-gauge cartridges available with steel shot and biodegradables wads, and a further 68 options made up of alternative shot such as bismuth, tungsten and tin zinc and alloy mixes. This is a significant progress; however, demand is now outstripping supply and the production of steel shot cartridges is slower than that of lead, therefore many manufacturers are investing heavily, acquiring new machinery to meet the demand of cartridges. There is also an issue with acquiring such machines that are produced in Europe at a rate of roughly 1 per year, and due to demand the time has risen to 3 years. However, we are in a position where the UK needs several such machines in a very short space of time.

Also: BASC notes that there are currently no small gauge non-lead/non plastic cartridges available such as for .410 .28g, 9mm, .22, and these gauges are used in more than 22% of live quarry shooting whether it be game or pest control. The agency should ensure that suitable alternatives are available before any legislation come into effect. There should also be a review by an independent body to ensure the availability of the c80 million cartridges needed across all gauges of shotgun before any legislation comes in to force. This review should be conducted by an external independent body such as Cranfield University and be funded by Defra/HSE.

And: BASC notes that pest control would normally be undertaken with small gauges in and around buildings, and currently the suitable alternatives are bismuth, and this is very expensive by comparison. BASC believes that rather than creating the extra cost of acquiring traps and restricting the use of lead ammunition, there could be a derogation for pest controllers to use lead ammunition. The risk to the environment and birds would be significantly reduced and pest control would continue in its current form.

Furthermore: If there is a restriction recommended for lead shot for live quarry shooting, there should be a review by an independent body to ensure the availability of the c80 million cartridges needed across all gauges of shotgun before any legislation comes in to force.
This review should be conducted by an external independent body such as Cranfield University and be funded by Defra/HSE.

The above are a few snapshots extracted from the BASC response but hope gives an indication that we are very aware of the challenges ahead whether for voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting or in the face of the cliff edge of a lead ban.
 
Talking of steel shot.....

This week I've been using the die grinder at work.
It sends tiny shards everywhere and invariably some get in the skin and irritate enough that you have to stop everything and dig it out.

If one goes unnoticed it festers.
Like this one I've got to fix this morning!
IMG_20240218_061829.webp

Faced with this fact of what steel does in the body I WILL NOT BE USING STEEL SHOT ON QUARRY!

This is based on fact sans of any science, expert, woke tart or activist, or worst still, committee or politician!
 
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