HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[stubear]

Frankly the other thing no one seems to be talking about is that Sweden (or possibly Denmark?) is changing its laws to allow lead to be used again.

So why are we not learning from our Scandinavian neighbours and their experience with non lead ammo? They tried it, it didn’t work and now they’re going back to lead. Why do we think we’re going to be any different?

 

[Whitefront]

Denmark is not changing back to lead. It is actually intensifying its ban on all lead ammo, as well as banning plastic wads. This is actually favoured by Danish hunters. As for Sweden, as a member of the EU, it will have to do whatever the EU says, ultimately. (You may be getting confused with Norway, which is not in the EU, and has very different shooting conditions to the UK. Lead is still banned on wetlands in Norway).

 

[Basil H]

There are hopeful comments about Hortonium here and elsewhere. However, all the metal elements which are as or more dense than lead are scarce and expensive so it is hard to see it being manufactured at a low price (compare Niceshot, ITM, TSS varieties etc.). We shall see.

 

[Eddie P]

This will be the end of practical / IPSC shotgun. Imagine using steel shot against steel plates!

 

[RF76]

The answer to the question of did BASC consult Members before making the announcement is a 'no' then Conor.

Simply citing ways for individuals to voice an opinion in the consultation is BASC not engaging with Members, and when the announcement was made by BASC they did everything they could to not have a conversation with Members in the public forum, such was the opposition/anger to their announcement.

It's worth highlighting that Lead IS a structural component of the planet, there is NO getting away from it. Not unless someone plans on mining it all, scooping it all up and sending it out to Space in their EV rocket.... So, when reference is made to just how bad it is, the risk will never really go away. More people become ill with cancer because they have pylons close to their homes, than through lead shot poisoning. I'd also suggest that more people are ill from the water they drink in their homes, not because of lead pipes but because the water companies (and chemical companies who poison water sources ref: darkwaters/teflon)) are less than reputable and we only have to see how much they knowingly release raw sewage over long periods of time, pay a fine with their taxpayer funds, and carry on but blame it on old pipes because it is a narrative that suits.

'If' BASC believed, and I do use that word very lightly, in Lead being so poisonous and harmful etc then why didn't they enforce it for all and not just for Wildfowlers over two decades ago ? Instead they rode the gravy train of driven shooting, and did all they could to protect it. Now the time has run out, and the EU insists on game produce being steel shot, everyone has to pay the price for BASC ineptitude. After all that is two decades of R&D that manufacturers could've developed world class leading steel shot/biowads but the truth is they don't believe in it. So, they turned away from game shooting and invested in clay shooting products in the time since the announcement believing that this would remain unaffected. Now, with the latest HSE report we see clay shooting will be affected. In typical Laurel & Hardy fashion, just another fine mess BASC has gotten us into.

But, then again its hardly surprising given this is the same organisation that continue to support Driven Duck shooting, all the while knowing the specie is on the Amber list. Not the actions of a conservation body leading by example is it ?

When the end of shooting comes, BASC will be gone in its entirety. The trouble is, it sems that BASC has not grasped this detail yet and seem oblivious to it.

The HSE review of lead ammunition started over 2 years ago. There have been regular updates and requests for feedback to BASC members all of that time by email and in BASC magazine. Also, to anyone that signs up for BASC Live whether members or non-members. Also updates and discussions on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, this forum and others.

The HSE launched a call for evidence in 2021 and a public consultation in 2022. BASC has stated its opposition to the HSE restriction proposals from the outset, i.e. no need for further regulation, and progress has been made with lead airgun pellet ban proposals dropped, that lead rifle ammo can continue on approved ranges, and possibly also for live quarry (depends on latest consultation outcome).

However, work also still needed on HSE restriction proposals for lead shot for target shooting and live quarry and that requires people to help the cause by responding to this, the last HSE consultation, which this thread is about. Will you submit a response to the final HSE consultation by 10 December?

To do so, please click the link below for more info,

New HSE consultation launched on lead ammunition

A consultation on outdoor lead ammunition use in England, Scotland and Wales revises previous restriction proposals for lead airgun pellets.

basc.org.uk

 

[Liveonce]

For transparency BASC should publish their replies in full to all the HSE consultations on lead, and any minutes for meeting they have had with the HSE.

So we the members can see how they have represented are interests.

BASC went for the voluntary transition away from lead for game shooting when the biodegradable water soluble wads became available by a U.K. cartridge manufacture. This made steel shot viable without having to pollute the countryside for hundreds of years with single-use plastic wads, as Denmark have done. A move that took all other UK cartridge manufacture by surprise. The move away from lead was also need to ensure the commercial shoots could sell the product into the food chain and secure the £250,000 BASC had invested.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@RF76 the HSE consultation runs until 10 December if you wish to respond.

@Liveonce BASC's response to last year's HSE lead ammunition consultation was published on the BASC website, with all the technical reports, and that was communicated to members, and shared on this forum.

BASC has stated its opposition to the HSE restriction proposals from the outset, i.e. no need for further regulation, and progress has been made with lead airgun pellet ban proposals dropped, that lead rifle ammo can continue on approved ranges, and possibly also for live quarry (depends on latest consultation outcome).

However, work also still needed on HSE restriction proposals for lead shot for target shooting and live quarry and that requires people to help the cause by responding to this, the last HSE consultation, which this thread is about.

Click the weblink below for more information:

New HSE consultation launched on lead ammunition

A consultation on outdoor lead ammunition use in England, Scotland and Wales revises previous restriction proposals for lead airgun pellets.

basc.org.uk

 

[Liveonce]

However, work also still needed on HSE restriction proposals for lead shot for target shooting…

I focused on that when I completed my response, however the BASC statement:

BASC’s position is that clay pigeon shooting with lead shot could continue where grounds have the correct risk measures in place, and they can ensure lead removal, as per the HSE guidance for target shooting with rifles.

Is a big concern, exactly what will be the correct risk measures and it is totally impractical for sporting clays to ensure lead removal as per target shooting with rifles and BASC should know that

Ignoring the practical side of recovering lead shot over scrub land and woods, how do you expect the many small not for profit clubs to pay for said measures or lead removal?

So why include such ideas in your statement ? why not simply say clay shooting operates over tiny areas of land compared to game shooting and hence any risk to fauna and flora is insignificant and risk to human heath is zero?

Sorry it reads like an excuse for BASC to appease the clay target shooters, ie look we are on your side, when in reality you know what you are suggesting is totally impractical, AND know keeping lead shot for clay shooting puts at risk that it will continue to be used for live quarry shooting, which is untenable to your agenda.

 

[terrier1]

Has any more been said about supermarkets complaining about steel shot going rusty in their fridges.
Sounds very tasty that doses.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Liveonce I have raised your queries/concerns with colleagues and I hope the following helps.

BASC’s position is that clay pigeon shooting with lead shot could continue where grounds have the correct risk measures in place, and they can ensure lead removal, as per the HSE guidance for target shooting with rifles.

Is a big concern, exactly what will be the correct risk measures and it is totally impractical for sporting clays to ensure lead removal as per target shooting with rifles and BASC should know that

There are many forms of clay pigeon shooting, not only sporting, many could make the changes required. As for sporting clays there are also Compaq sporting that could make the changes. Obviously, not all could make the changes, but that should be up to the individual ground rather than sweeping legislation.

Ignoring the practical side of recovering lead shot over scrub land and woods, how do you expect the many small not for profit clubs to pay for said measures or lead removal?

Clubs will need to decide if the measures were appropriate, proportionate and financially viable.

So why include such ideas in your statement ? why not simply say clay shooting operates over tiny areas of land compared to game shooting and hence any risk to fauna and flora is insignificant and risk to human heath is zero?

As above, clay grounds are also considered by the HSE to be a risk to wildlife, soil and water. If risk management measures are in place then lead could continue to be used. Clay pigeon shooting accounts for the majority of lead ammunition used in the UK.

Sorry it reads like an excuse for BASC to appease the clay target shooters, ie look we are on your side, when in reality you know what you are suggesting is totally impractical, AND know keeping lead shot for clay shooting puts at risk that it will continue to be used for live quarry shooting, which is untenable to your agenda.

It will be impractical for some but not all grounds, and clay pigeon shooting with lead ammunition could continue where the correct measures are in place. Lead shot for clay pigeon shooting could be loaded lighter 24g 7, 8 9 making them unsuitable for live quarry. As we know shooters are amongst the most law abiding groups of people and would follow the law.

 

[Liveonce]

@Liveonce I have raised your queries/concerns with colleagues and I hope the following helps.

There are many forms of clay pigeon shooting, not only sporting, many could make the changes required. As for sporting clays there are also Compaq sporting that could make the changes. Obviously, not all could make the changes, but that should be up to the individual ground rather than sweeping legislation.

Clubs will need to decide if the measures were appropriate, proportionate and financially viable.

As above, clay grounds are also considered by the HSE to be a risk to wildlife, soil and water. If risk management measures are in place then lead could continue to be used. Clay pigeon shooting accounts for the majority of lead ammunition used in the UK.

It will be impractical for some but not all grounds, and clay pigeon shooting with lead ammunition could continue where the correct measures are in place. Lead shot for clay pigeon shooting could be loaded lighter 24g 7, 8 9 making them unsuitable for live quarry. As we know shooters are amongst the most law abiding groups of people and would follow the law.

Thank you for the reply.

You do realise English Sporting is THE most popular form of clay shooting.

Your last paragraph made me laugh, lighter 24gm 7,8 9 making them unsuitable for live quarry, You do know size 7 lead shot at 2.4mm (and if an EU cartridge may actually be 2.5mm U.K. 6.1/2) is very suitable for decoying pigeons and early season game, You do know 20ga, 28ga and .410 do exist and shoot 24gm or less, I have shot many a pigeon with a 28ga with 24gm and even 21gm of 2.4mm lead shot
Subsonic in 20gauge and .410 is very popular and by its nature useless in steel shot,
The report from steel cartridges is also significantly more than lead cartridges which potentially could see clay grounds closed down.

Yes clay shooting deposits the largest quantities of lead but over tiny amounts of ground in a restricted area.

It’s also comforting to see the empathy that you have for the small not for profit clubs, which most likely if they had to use steel shot with biodegradable wads at £400+ would see their members either giving up or moving to another ground that could still use lead at £260 (todays prices). However I am sure you have another £250,000 interest free you can loan to such clubs to help them.

 

[Liveonce]

Conor just for you, Regal Game, 28ga 16gm 7 lead shot for Grouse QED.

 

[enfieldspares]

Lead shot for clay pigeon shooting could be loaded lighter 24g 7, 8 9 making them unsuitable for live quarry. As we know shooters are amongst the most law abiding groups of people and would follow the law.

This is why I wish there was a "roll eyes" emoji.

So 24 gram of #7 is unsuitable for live quarry? Is that just unsuitable that 24 gram in the 12 bore? But there's something magic about the 20 bore that makes its 21 gram of #7 suitable? Or the .410" gauge with its 19 gram of #7?

Really you could not make this up. It is laughable.

Has the contributor ever shot compak? The only clay shooting that has a set and defined fall out area is, pretty much, traditional single rise DTL. Everythung else especially compak (which relies on deceptive angles and speeds) has a very wide fall out area. With traditional English Skeet shooting from station one through to station seven it's nearly 135 degrees.

My advice is that of when in a hole? Stop digging!

 

[csl]

Sorry, that's enough.