Lead Ban- UK Reach 2nd Consultation

Nearly two pages of replies by the BASC correspondent and yet, still, no public reply as t why the New Zealand model was considered by BASC as unsuitable for the UK?
Sorry I missed your post and indeed I think we discussed NZ on this forum before. There are various types of lead bans in various countries worldwide - each one being specific to that country which always going to be a mix of science and politics. Indeed even within the UK we have four different types of wildfowl and/or wetlands restrictions on lead shot in place. BASC is not proposing lead bans so I don't see why it would it propose a NZ style lead ban. The HSE is proposing a lead ban and BASC has been challenging that - with progress already made on lead airgun pellets and for target shooting with rifle ammunition - but more work still to be done - and lots of consultation responses will help.
 
An interesting quote in there:


Scientists at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), ADAS UK, the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust (WWT), and the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) carry out surveys assessing compliance. These organisations studied samples of shot wildfowl alongside member surveys14.

These surveys found that over the winters of 2001/2, 2008/9, 2009/10, and 2013/14 over 70% of ducks sold by game suppliers were shot with lead14,15. Surveys of BASC members found at 45% of respondents admitted they ‘sometimes or never comply’ with lead shot restrictions14. Surveys of live birds in 2010-11 using blood samples also showed that 33% of birds sampled had elevated levels of lead in their blood16.

Either they sampled 70% of all birds sold or they have misrepresented the facts and should have said that a sample was tested and 70% were found to be contaminated with lead. I doubt they checked every duck sold that year which is what they are inferring. This therefore has as much validity as a yougov poll, no statement of the sample source and if any bias was inferred in the question. Extrapolation is as accurate as voodoo and tarot cards. If it was one butcher sampled on one day who's to say that the birds werent all provided by one source and that source was a known lawbreaker?

Totally agree sample size should have been quoted to be valid and who tested the shot for type.

something like this from WJ, hate to say it (again) but WJ are much better than us at these things.

Today a study on the use of lead shot in Pheasant shooting has been released – it has some significant (but not necessarily surprising) results. We’re now three years into a five-year pledge completely to phase out lead shot in UK game hunting, made by nine major UK shooting and rural organisations. The Cambridge study has revealed that in the 2022-23 season 94% of pheasants being sold on supermarket shelves, in butchers and by game dealers were shot using lead.

This is quite clearly a very small decrease – an average of a 2% reduction per year of the pledge. At this rate of change, it would take the industry another 47 years to phase out the use of lead shot – just a little bit longer than the 5 years they committed to.

The study, undertaken by scientists at University of Cambridge and published in Conservation Evidence Journal can be read here. A team of 17 volunteers scoured shops, butchers and game dealers for Pheasant in late 2022 and early 2023; they managed to round up 356 carcasses. Of these, 235 contained embedded shotgun pellets. These pellets were then analysed in a laboratory to determine the main metal present – in 94% of them, this was lead.

There has been a (very) small improvement in these figures; the same analysis carried out in 2020-21, and 2021-22 found that over 99% of pheasants were shot with lead. That said, a decrease of 6% goes to show that phasing out lead voluntarily simply isn’t working fast enough.

We’ve spoken about lead contamination of game meat, and it’s detrimental impact on human health, several times in the past few years. Lead is a known toxin which accumulates with repeated exposure; it can cause health issues in adults, and has neurological effects on babies and children.

The pledge to go lead-free was made back in 2020 by a consortium of organisations including Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust (GWCT), British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), Countryside Alliance and British Game Assurance (BGA) amongst others. It called on members, supporters and shooters to voluntarily switch to an alternative and non-toxic type of shot, such as steel or copper.

This transition should be an easy one. Alternative steel shot is practical, and can be used with most existing shotguns. There’s been plenty of guidance provided by the likes of GWCT and others, who’ve actively encouraged their community to adopt alternatives, since they made their commitment back in 2020. Other countries have had great success with a switch; Denmark’s shooting community have stopped using lead since it was banned back in 1996. It seems that the lacking factor here isn’t practicality – but a case of will by hunters and shooters.

The sector’s pledge was offered voluntarily, but in the face of mounting pressure from both the public and governing bodies concerned with lead ammunition. Last year the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) consulted on a proposed restriction, even ban, of lead ammunition – which we’re still waiting to hear back about.

The first author of the Cambridge study, Professor Rhys Green, agrees that the decrease is nowhere near on track to meet a 2025 deadline: “If UK game hunters are going to phase out lead shot voluntarily, they’re not doing very well so far,” he said.

It seems that the five-year pledge may have been an attempt by the industry to get a head-start on the transition, before it was strictly enforced. It seems so far, that head-start has turned into more of a false start.



Edit to add Professor Rhys Green is one of the experts advising the HSE on the lead ban !
 
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With all due respect Conor if I have the wrong information but didn't BASC support the proposed ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting in the earlier HSE consultation?
No, but I can understand how it could be viewed as such from the summary response on our website which does not include all the nuances and complexities that needed to be unpicked in the HSE proposals and contained in BASC's full response to last year's consultation as follows:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...-restriction-dossier-on-lead-ammunition-1.pdf

Turning to this year's consultation two documents to review:

HSE draft background document (context for the opinion and how feedback to consultation, including from BASC was taken into account):


HSE draft opinion:

 
I have no problem with game dealers insisting on non lead shot!
I have no problem with big bags and steel shot but it shouldn’t be mandatory for pot hunting where the birds are taken by the guns and beaters! It’s another imposition by a nanny state
 
Thanks. That's a long time ago. I don't understand how something a BASC staff member said a wildfowling conference over 20 years ago has relevance today.
Clutching at straws with that one!
It was while, according to you. BASC was actively campaigning against a lead ban, but all the time, Swift and Harradine were not 100% on side.
 
I have no problem with game dealers insisting on non lead shot!
I have no problem with big bags and steel shot but it shouldn’t be mandatory for pot hunting where the birds are taken by the guns and beaters! It’s another imposition by a nanny state
But where are all the game dealers going to get all there birds form for next to nothing.
Can anyone tell me what a brace of pheasants are fetching at the moment.
 
Clutching at straws with that one!
It was while, according to you. BASC was actively campaigning against a lead ban, but all the time, Swift and Harradine were not 100% on side.
Perhaps it is time to move on from discussions that took place over two decades ago? In any case where is the lead ban? It never happened. Do you support the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting supported by the shooting organisations?
 
Why should we not have the choice what we shoot through our guns. When there is no evidence that we should change.
Shooting organisations that have not consult their members and their for have no right to support a voluntary ban.
 
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I have no problem with game dealers insisting on non lead shot!
I have no problem with big bags and steel shot but it shouldn’t be mandatory for pot hunting where the birds are taken by the guns and beaters! It’s another imposition by a nanny state
Totally agree with this, the one-for-potters have been sold out for the sake of rescuing the image of large scale pheasant shoots funded by London investment bankers. However I seriously doubt this change is going to magically create a market for a the tonnes of pheasant meat/waste created.

Ban the sale, supply or dumping of lead shot pheasant for all I care, it wont affect me a bit. If the HSE feel they need rules, we need some proportionality between large and small scale shooting.

On Saturday I went to the first of two shoots I will attend this year. We shot 11 pheasants and three woodpigeon. The guests took 6 pheasants and Ive already plucked and frozen the rest for family consumption. Next and final shoot at xmas. Its no one’s business how these birds were shot. I have yet to be persuaded that humans or upland wildlife are falling over in their droves from lead shot that has been used for centuries.

This ban wont affect an investment banker one bit, their new side by side can probably cope with steel already. But with the volume of shooting I do its not worth buying a new gun. I have never found an over and under nor steel proofed gun I like. Its also not worth rebarrelling my 100 year side by side, that has huge sentimental family value.

I feel let down and unnecessarily persecuted for a practice that’s none of the HSE’s or the government’s business.
 
Because I perceive that this has all been done to protect the large commercial shoots against criticism that they are merely shooting feathered clay pigeons with no interest at all in what happens to the shot game afterwards. So the defence of the day being some sort of "harvesting" of game for the market either in the UK or in the EU. Which as lead in food is a poison demanded non-lead shot game.

I also could see that the argument then deployed for a total ban will be that lead shot size #7 in a pheasant is "bad" yet shards of lead from a .270" WCF in the shoulder of a roe minced into burgers isn't? When in fact as far as I understand that...lead shards in cloven game...is the actual meat that some Scandinavian studies show are the real culprit of enhanced lead levels in eaters of such.

There also has been no consideration that by admitting that you want to travel that road you effectively then cannot argue against then being frogmarched and manhandled down it. And by February 2025 thanks to the "five year" time in the BASC proposals. Indeed I see in the DEFRA initial response that they do highlight that "the shooting organisations" have committed to ending using lead for shooting game and with no exemptions suggested by those organisations.

So now we have had have furious back pedalling yet despite the communications I have made (and that have been forwarded to BASC) they made in their initial submission no request for exemption for .22" Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns, no exemption for the .410" and no exemption for when the quarry is vermin that will be destroyed such as rats.

Lastly as I keep saying where is the regard to the use of shotguns on deer? And, finally, why no exemption of lead shot below English #8 as has long been exempted in the longstanding fishing weight legislation? This would have de facto solved the .22" R/F and 9mm R/F issue and also the clay shooting issue.

In summary I said no to the BASC proposed lead shot proposals as they were ill thought through and done without referral to or the consent of their members. A major volte face and huge change for what has been done for the past near two centuries done almost overnight and without warning.

I could go on but I think that's enough. For just now! I see it as simply imposing on others something that the big bag syndicates weren't willing individually to impose on their guns (use it or go home) for fear that they'd simply go and shoot elsewhere that wasn't going to insist in lead shot. So under pressure from such interests the answer was a call for a blanket wholesale ban.

And if this year there is a BASC day at Catton Hall will BASC insist (use it or go home) that all participants use non-lead?
 
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There has been one prosecution according to google yet the green lobbies claim 13 million ducks shot with lead since the ban! These estimates are often from universities yet have no physical evidence to back up their claims
I’m unconvinced that it is widespread as claimed and wild goose can’t be sold was my understanding
It would be easier to ban sale of lead shot game and leave the shooter to make the decision
In fact most of the geese on my ground are on stubble so nowhere near a watercourse!
Claim what you want but without real figures backed by evidence not estimates and you will have my support
By the way the claim by bird guides.com doesn’t show the prosecution so that could be made up
I know of two now EX- wildfowlers who where convicted of using lead . I doubt they are the only two events that have occurred! I dont think prosecutions of those who have done this are put out in the public domain and if they where what might the heading be "wildlife crime ? " there is a stink load of offences for that but i doubt using lead shot on wildfowl reach the local newspaper . If it did it would likely come under the header " wildlife crime " not specifically illegal shooting of wildfowl with lead shot .
Some club bailiffs do checks , i have been checked once as i dropped a silly high goose i should not have pointed at and the bailiff was straight over thinking it was with lead ( was actually 36 grm number 3 steel). One pellet into the brain!
 
You are clutching at straws. You don't have to do much shooting to know that today, 20 odd years after the ban there are still people using lead to shoot wildfowl illegally. The "antis" and the government know it too.

There are even people on this site saying that if lead is banned, they intend to break the law.

The shooting community is it's own worst enemy. If there is a ban on lead it needs to be an outright ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition across the board.
You are making assumptions which blacken all of our reputations, that is fact not an assumption with false claims of evidence.
 
An interesting quote in there:


Scientists at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), ADAS UK, the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust (WWT), and the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) carry out surveys assessing compliance. These organisations studied samples of shot wildfowl alongside member surveys14.

These surveys found that over the winters of 2001/2, 2008/9, 2009/10, and 2013/14 over 70% of ducks sold by game suppliers were shot with lead14,15. Surveys of BASC members found at 45% of respondents admitted they ‘sometimes or never comply’ with lead shot restrictions14. Surveys of live birds in 2010-11 using blood samples also showed that 33% of birds sampled had elevated levels of lead in their blood16.

Either they sampled 70% of all birds sold or they have misrepresented the facts and should have said that a sample was tested and 70% were found to be contaminated with lead. I doubt they checked every duck sold that year which is what they are inferring. This therefore has as much validity as a yougov poll, no statement of the sample source and if any bias was inferred in the question. Extrapolation is as accurate as voodoo and tarot cards. If it was one butcher sampled on one day who's to say that the birds werent all provided by one source and that source was a known lawbreaker?
I remember this one but not the finer details it was damming evidence and the birds where purchased , if i remember correctly from a supermarket or supermarkets . An event that must have helped the anti and ushered in the current changes
 
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