Shultz and Larsen bolt stuck after firing
- Thread starter Woodsy
- Start date
Woodsy
Well-Known Member
The gunsmith.
The original one was in bits, we only found a shard of it. The thing I saw - which I now know is called a roll pin - was when he was looking through his box to find a replacement for what he said was the shear pin which had failed. He tried a few (roll pins) but one was just too big and the next size down just too small. He said his were all imperial and he thought what I needed was a metric sized pin. I guess he may have just been trying to gauge the size, or maybe considered using a roll pin to replace the shear pin (would that work??). I honestly don’t know. Either way the bolt will be with Alan Rhone tomorrow and back with me Thursday hopefully, all in working order and ready to go to work.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Woodsy
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I’ll report back here when I’ve heard what Alan has said about possible cause etc.I look forward to the update mate.
Hope it gets sorted soon
Yep common , think of solder as a glue . easy avoided dont buy rifles made that wayHmmm.
Might be a safety catch issue or could be a dirty chamber or even contaminated cartridge - not familiar with rifle i.e. straight pull or turnbolt, a gentle tap or two with piece of wood might work - make sure the bolt is lifted before tapping rearwards!!
Used to happen with Mosin Nagants when the dreaded cosmoline had not been fully cleaned and it “welded“ the fired brass to the chamber - anything from a heel to a plank got the desired result but then it was a Mosin - dependent on construction on some other rifles the (soldered?) bolt handle snapped off so be careful!
A dowel?
BC.
BC.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
it was a roll pin then, probably failed due to overpressure load
Kiwiguy
Well-Known Member
There are two short roll pins that head towards the center of the bolt. It can't be a single pin because it would hit the firing pin. One roll pin holds the ejector in place and the other I believe holds the extractor in place.
In my opinion there are two ways that the ejector roll pin could fail in the fashion that @Woodsy mentioned.
First is an over pressure cartridge that has forced the ejector violently down against the roll pin fracturing it in the process. This would explain the ejector swipe Woodsy wrote of.
Second is if the roll pin somehow moved towards the center of the bolt and partially blocked the firing pin hole. On firing the firing pin could possibly shatter the roll pin.
All purely speculation on my part.
In my opinion there are two ways that the ejector roll pin could fail in the fashion that @Woodsy mentioned.
First is an over pressure cartridge that has forced the ejector violently down against the roll pin fracturing it in the process. This would explain the ejector swipe Woodsy wrote of.
Second is if the roll pin somehow moved towards the center of the bolt and partially blocked the firing pin hole. On firing the firing pin could possibly shatter the roll pin.
All purely speculation on my part.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Bad design in my humble opinion.
I keep reading about all these over pressure scenarios but I never;
Really see any evidence of it.
Never see any injury to firearm or individual.
Or read of it on American forums.
Why is it such a popular assumption?
Pretty much every time it's suggested it turns out to not the case at all.
Just how many here have lost body parts due to this wonderful and colourful expression " overpressure"?
I keep reading about all these over pressure scenarios but I never;
Really see any evidence of it.
Never see any injury to firearm or individual.
Or read of it on American forums.
Why is it such a popular assumption?
Pretty much every time it's suggested it turns out to not the case at all.
Just how many here have lost body parts due to this wonderful and colourful expression " overpressure"?
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Smellydog,
I‘ve seen plenty of over pressure signs….Flattened primers, pierced primers, primers blown out and little brass washer shapes blown back through the firing pin hole and into the bolt. But never any damage to man or machine, they’re built to take a bit of “Overpressure” aren’t they?
Nearest to damage I saw was when Gunsmith chambered my 14/221 and on test firing, the case welded itself to the bolt face. That was a new Rem 700 action.
Ken.
I‘ve seen plenty of over pressure signs….Flattened primers, pierced primers, primers blown out and little brass washer shapes blown back through the firing pin hole and into the bolt. But never any damage to man or machine, they’re built to take a bit of “Overpressure” aren’t they?
Nearest to damage I saw was when Gunsmith chambered my 14/221 and on test firing, the case welded itself to the bolt face. That was a new Rem 700 action.
Ken.
Alan is an absolute gent and lovely to talk with. A real font of knowledge and always wanting to be as helpful as poss.
I have a couple of S&L's and the first had a minor ejector issue whereby the case rim was every so often hanging up and not ejecting the case fully from the port. They resolved quickly and without hassle and also whilst knowing I was reloading my own ammo. Not that that was having an impact on the ejection issue as it was also doing it with factory ammo but some people try to get out of righting wrongs if reloaded ammo has been used. Not Alan Rhone. I have returned time and again to buy items from him. Top service. Your Schultz will be singing again soon and as you know, they are lovely guns.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Ay Ken.
But even when there is no evidence of it, nothing is established it's the first thing some one says when they have no idea at all.
Just doesn't make any sense.
For a round to lock up an action means it would be way beyond a proof cartridge which if a remember correctly is about 70%plus service pressure.
Woodsy
Well-Known Member
Interesting to read your thoughts @Kiwiguy, thank you. It will be interesting to hear what Alan and his team think may have been the cause.
@Cottis I agree 100% that Alan Rhone is a gentleman and always goes above and beyond to be helpful. I too return again and again to buy from him and all dealings have been incredibly efficient. Customer service from all his staff too is always exemplary. And yes; Shultz and Larsen rifles certainly are lovely!
@Cottis I agree 100% that Alan Rhone is a gentleman and always goes above and beyond to be helpful. I too return again and again to buy from him and all dealings have been incredibly efficient. Customer service from all his staff too is always exemplary. And yes; Shultz and Larsen rifles certainly are lovely!
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I have spent quite a bit of my life involved in mountaineering, paragliding and on the fringes of aviation. My brother in law was a senior flying instructor in military and has been involved in fatal accident enquiries. In both areas there is a culture that accidents and incidents should be acknowledged, examined, debated and findings made known so as to prevent further incidents.
When there is culture of secrecy etc that is what leads to disaster. The 737 Max is an absolute example of this. Boeing refused to acknowledge there were any potential issues long before aeroplanes started falling out of the sky.
With firearms and rifle sports there is similar culture of absolute secrecy. Nobody wants to acknowledge that Firearms, ammunition and shooters are bits of machinery and human operators and they all can do go wrong on occasion.
I know of two incidences within target shooting in Scotland where rifles have let go. In one, another on the firing point nearly lost an eye. Cause in both seems to have been not cleaning out the powder thrower properly - the shooter in both cases reloaded pistol and full bore rifle cartridges and on investigation of other cartridges in the same batch there was a mix of pistol and rifle powder.
Quite why incidents such as these are not published or discussed widely I do not know. The BHPA (the paragliding equivalent to NRA or BASC) publishes a summary of incidents each month and a full accident reports on its website.
I don’t see the NRA, BASC or other governing bodies doing anything similar, nor indeed having any willingness to do anything similar.
Most Serious ranges have a big mallet to open actions seized via over pressure . Sometimes the method makes an expensive scope worth nothing !
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Heym SR20,
When I was an active pilot the CAA used to send a magazine out periodically and near the back was listed accidents (Whether fatal or not) and if known their causes.
I don’t think commercial pilots had a choice, but PPL holders could say nothing if they wanted, to save embarrassment perhaps.
Shooters probably no different?
But, as I found out a couple weeks back when I owned up to a reloading mistake…..you get the **** taken out of you by one that are clever and have never made mistakes.
Ken.
PS. I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong.
Woodsy
Well-Known Member
My closing contribution to this thread now. Just to say Alan Rhone has repaired the bolt by replacing the retaining pin with a new one. He has already posted the bolt back to my local gunshop. All FOC.
When I asked if he knew what had caused the pin to fail he said that due to the fact the pin was missing he couldn’t see if it was loose in the hole for some reason, and added that the newly replaced pin is such a tight fit that he doesn’t know why the original came out.
It would be nice to know definitively what had caused this but I guess it will remain a mystery, (with a number of possible causes of course).
Thanks again for all your helpful and interesting contributions to this thread.
When I asked if he knew what had caused the pin to fail he said that due to the fact the pin was missing he couldn’t see if it was loose in the hole for some reason, and added that the newly replaced pin is such a tight fit that he doesn’t know why the original came out.
It would be nice to know definitively what had caused this but I guess it will remain a mystery, (with a number of possible causes of course).
Thanks again for all your helpful and interesting contributions to this thread.
Jura
Well-Known Member
Possibly an undersized Roll Pin; it should have been an interference fit.
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