BDS Statement on Stag Hunting

Thanks for that.

I am sure we all have our own opinion re NT.

Nothing for PETA or the RSPCA then?
No. At least, not the deer study.

That was entirely driven by political and management considerations within the NT.

PETA made Bateson’s life a misery for a while because they saw him as ‘selling out’ to the enemy. We had students screaming at him in lectures because he was ‘collaborating’ with the hunts.
 
Can someone please explain to me why it's permissable to hunt rabbits with dogs and not hares or foxes with hounds. Also why it's ok to kill rats with dogs or slow death poisons. Is a rat not a mammal capable of feeling as much if not more stress and pain from poisoning as an animal hunted by hounds. It is either ok to hunt mammals with hounds and to condemn other animals to a slow lingering death, or not. After all a rat or rabbit has the same brain as other mammals. Just playing the Devil's disciple here.

There are no answers only clues 🕵️‍♀️, but I have my suspicions given the mindset of some and suspect some form of evolution is underway due to over education among other things. 🤪
 
The problem is that peer-reviewed scientific studies are not equivalent to proven fact. Any scientist will tell you that. On a wider basis, evidence admissible in court is not required to be proven fact. Evidence means something significantly different. It is that significant difference which lies behind much of our difference of opinion.
Why do you say that (I'm almost tempted to ask what evidence you have for that!)? Peer-reviewed paper is pretty high up on a pyramid of evidence and a Cochrane type meta review will be a review of peer reviewed papers.
 
What evidence has been presented to support the supposition that only sick deer are targeted by dogs that has been suppressed? I haven’t looked for any or seen any and am genuinely interested. If there is evidence out there then it should be considered but it needs to be of a reasonable quality to make any difference, particularly where there is clear evidence that shows that hunted deer (with dogs) are subjected to greater stress and therefore this is interpreted as causing unecessary suffering.
If you are making the case that Exmoor deer are distinctly different to other populations, which may be the case as the SW of England has long been a TB hot spot then a control population can only come from that environment. It would be pointless comparing the detection of disease on Exmoor using hounds with the detection of disease in Scotland by shooting or from a fallow herd in the midlands. As such the null hypothesis could be that the hounds hunted by hounds on Exmoor would not show any difference in gross findings of disease compared to those hunted using firearms on Exmoor. Thereby comparing one single variable, that being the ability of the dog to detect disease…. What control population would you suggest and what added value would it bring? Clearly every animal would have to be subjected to a professional PM but only gross pathology could be reliably detected. Presumably the organisations supporting hunting with dogs will be happy to fund such research via an independent research body if it is a real factor to consider or do they tacitly agree that it is a load of rubbish too?
I looked, found none, gave up after 2 pages of google scholar
 
Much of this debate circles back to the work of Prof Bateson in the run up to the hunting with dogs act. Which of course we all know in our hearts was not about love of wild life but about the left’s loathing of the people they perceived as pink clad toffs.

Mark my words if Sir Slippery gets in there will be more of the same. With little room to tax and spend they will have to find something to throw to the baying left.

Perhaps some of the Bateson cheer team on here can enlighten us as to which organisations sponsored much of his work.
As I recall Bateson's study was fairly robust in its conclusions on the physiological differences of shot v chased deer.
 
As I recall Bateson's study was fairly robust in its conclusions on the physiological differences of shot v chased deer.
The actual data are about as conclusive as you could ask for outside of a lab on a large wild animal.

If the question was something uncontroversial like ‘what worming regime worked best’, no one would have questioned it.
 
Why do you say that (I'm almost tempted to ask what evidence you have for that!)?
I say it because it is true, both in theory and in practice. If you'd like evidence, a particularly notorious example would be Wakefield's fraudulent nonsense about MMR vaccines and autism - peer reviewed and published in a prestigious journal (Lancet).
Academia has been rather conspicuously discrediting itself in recent years, which does little to maintain confidence in the integrity of particularly this type of science.
The following links illustrate the problem:



Peer-reviewed paper is pretty high up on a pyramid of evidence and a Cochrane type meta review will be a review of peer reviewed papers.
Nobody mentioned a Cochrane type meta review. What my comment addressed was the assertion that a peer-reviewed paper is equivalent to proven fact..Everybody with rhe slightest scientific knowledge, including you, knows that is incorrect.
Why did you make this comment?
 
I say it because it is true, both in theory and in practice. If you'd like evidence, a particularly notorious example would be Wakefield's fraudulent nonsense about MMR vaccines and autism - peer reviewed and published in a prestigious journal (Lancet).
Academia has been rather conspicuously discrediting itself in recent years, which does little to maintain confidence in the integrity of particularly this type of science.
The following links illustrate the problem:

Are you arguing that because a process can make mistakes, therefore all products of that process must also be mistaken? I think you can recognise the fallacy there.

No scientist would deny that peer review has flaws. However, to claim that academia has been ‘discrediting itself’ is hyperbole.
 
So fears of field sports being restricted, licensed or banned are then groundless, as it is just the Antis disliking it?

I fear you have a very stereotypical view of those that oppose field sports.
They are not all "blue haired, pulse eating friends", they are the metropolitan masses who have no concept of what happens outside of their comfortable urban surroundings, or they are those that previously lived in that environment and have subsequently moved to a rural idyll and found out that it smells, it's noisy and people engage in activities that are completely alien to them.
Your fear of my stereotypical view of an anti/fieldsports opponent is touching, but I assure you Sir, I was merely using our blue haired friends as an example, ( for brevity's sake naturally) I am more than familiar with the diversity enjoyed by our enemies, as for your first point, which is a little difficult to decipher, but no, of course those fears are not groundless, have you not grasped what is being debated here?
 
Are you arguing that because a process can make mistakes, therefore all products of that process must also be mistaken?
No. Did you read that? No. Because that's competely different to what I wrote. What I wrote is crystal clear. And correct.
I think you can recognise the fallacy there.
Yes. You've made it. I wrote A. You claim I wrote B and that B is wrong.
No scientist would deny that peer review has flaws.
Which, in effect, is what I said. So why the frick are you disputing it?
However, to claim that academia has been ‘discrediting itself’ is hyperbole.
It may be debatable, but certainly not hyperbole.
 
Can someone please explain to me why it's permissable to hunt rabbits with dogs and not hares or foxes with hounds. Also why it's ok to kill rats with dogs or slow death poisons. Is a rat not a mammal capable of feeling as much if not more stress and pain from poisoning as an animal hunted by hounds. It is either ok to hunt mammals with hounds and to condemn other animals to a slow lingering death, or not. After all a rat or rabbit has the same brain as other mammals. Just playing the Devil's disciple here.
That is a fair question and within the 'safety' of this forum I would suggest every individual has his own moral compass - for example...

I used to absolutely love organised hare coursing with both the Greyhound clubs and the Whippet club. The rules were totally in favour of the hare and I doubt if more that 7 or 8% were caught. In the case of the Greyhounds, if they killed at all it would be within seconds. I remember watching a dog called Peasedown Erin and he often pulled down within 20 seconds.

However, on some of the days out with the lurcher clubs, I didn't enjoy prolonged courses made by the Saluki bred dogs. These dogs had phenomenal stamina - seeing was believing. I found no enjoyment in watching a poor hare, that had used every trick in the book and was proven to have amazing agility, speed and stamina, be worn down in courses lasting many minutes. Watching a hare, pushed into the centre of a huge field be worn down to a trot, until it emits a pitiful cry - is not good sport in my book.

Yes - both could be classed as 'hare coursing' but, personally, for me, the two examples are as different as chalk and cheese.

Likewise, anyone with any experience at all could quickly explain the difference between ratting with terriers and Stag hunting. We all have to make our own minds up what is acceptable to us.
 
That is a fair question and within the 'safety' of this forum I would suggest every individual has his own moral compass - for example...

I used to absolutely love organised hare coursing with both the Greyhound clubs and the Whippet club. The rules were totally in favour of the hare and I doubt if more that 7 or 8% were caught. In the case of the Greyhounds, if they killed at all it would be within seconds. I remember watching a dog called Peasedown Erin and he often pulled down within 20 seconds.

However, on some of the days out with the lurcher clubs, I didn't enjoy prolonged courses made by the Saluki bred dogs. These dogs had phenomenal stamina - seeing was believing. I found no enjoyment in watching a poor hare, that had used every trick in the book and was proven to have amazing agility, speed and stamina, be worn down in courses lasting many minutes. Watching a hare, pushed into the centre of a huge field be worn down to a trot, until it emits a pitiful cry - is not good sport in my book.

Yes - both could be classed as 'hare coursing' but, personally, for me, the two examples are as different as chalk and cheese.

Likewise, anyone with any experience at all could quickly explain the difference between ratting with terriers and Stag hunting. We all have to make our own minds up what is acceptable to us.
It was almost a tongue in cheek question Keith and I can see how some would look at things. A moral compass is a great tool but I have never yet met an "Anti" who was unhappy about poisoning rats and condemning them to a horrendous death. I too attended many coursing meetings, I did hunt terrier work, enjoyed many days staghunting and walked a great many rivers with the otterhounds. I suppose therefore with time spent chasing other things in far off deserts etc I could be classified as devoid of morals rather than having a compass. Strangely though I can honestly say I have enjoyed every minute of it all and still consider I have moral values way above those of our enemies.🦡
 
It was almost a tongue in cheek question Keith and I can see how some would look at things. A moral compass is a great tool but I have never yet met an "Anti" who was unhappy about poisoning rats and condemning them to a horrendous death. I too attended many coursing meetings, I did hunt terrier work, enjoyed many days staghunting and walked a great many rivers with the otterhounds. I suppose therefore with time spent chasing other things in far off deserts etc I could be classified as devoid of morals rather than having a compass. Strangely though I can honestly say I have enjoyed every minute of it all and still consider I have moral values way above those of our enemies.🦡
Now Otterhunting I missed by a whisker...My childhood best mates father was the master of the Eastern Counties Otterhounds, sadly they disbanded and the sport was banned before I had the opportunity to experience it.
 
I have a fantastic book
“Of dogs and deer” which is a fantastic history or the sport.

Think I’ll read that rather than this lot 😂

I have a spare copy to sell as well if any other sporting gentlemen are interested.
 
No. Did you read that? No. Because that's competely different to what I wrote. What I wrote is crystal clear. And correct.
I didn’t say you said that. I was asking for clarification of what your point was when you pointed out that peer review can make mistakes. It appeared to be an attempt to use the existence of mistakes in general as a way to discredit specific studies. But I wasn’t sure, hence asking for clarification.

Yes. You've made it. I wrote A. You claim I wrote B and that B is wrong.
Nope. Didn’t claim anything. Asked what you were arguing.


Which, in effect, is what I said. So why the frick are you disputing it?
I’m not.

It may be debatable, but certainly not hyperbole.
It rather is. Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of studies undergo peer review every year. The huge majority are entirely unremarkable - the day to day process of figuring stuff out and getting that process checked by someone.

To say that ‘academia is discrediting itself’ is a wild exaggeration based on a small proportion of high profile retractions and mistakes in rather specific fields.
 
Some people will never agree with hunting with hounds or dogs or the shooting of live quarry for food or sport,
it’s either in your blood or it’s not and certainly in mine and think it was once called sport by some once upon a star.
Same for death penalty including the once popular public hangings now thought to be barbaric by many but some ok with lethal injection and the electric chair, personally ok with all, with a preference for hanging.
Not sure about the vegans or vegetarians but they certainly have issues and i enjoy meat among other things but each to their own.
Could be argued that some species need to be controlled ie deer but woe betide the person that actually enjoys the process.
One thing for certain imo, the love of some country pursuits is been bred out of people in general with the majority against blood sports.
Not sure about the age thing but some things I would once do I no longer will given a choice, but fine with those that do.
Will not be giving up sex for pleasure anytime soon, but that’s a whole new subject, or is it? 😂
 
Last edited:
Back
Top