BASC deer stalkers register - this is not a slight to those without DSC2

[Conor O'Gorman]

I was a member of wagbi and then basc. I was disgruntled with them on the run up to the lead ban in England(wildfowl) I was instrumental in meetings held in various parts of Scotland between wildfowlers, Basc, Countryside alliance etc . I amongst a lot of fellow fowlers, game keepers etc all heard the BAsc state that the ban was through in England and it would soon go through in Scotland and why they AGREED with it etc. I could go on but you and everyone who wants to see, will see the point. The BASC have taken our money for years and have made promises etc but only given back small token gestures whilst having their hands held by the other country organisations. My last word as I know there are none as blind as those who do not wish to see--- I am too long in the tooth and seen to many kidders to be fooled by false gods and promise.

Your comment above was in reference to my point that BASC recently played a key role in stopping a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting. I pointed out that this was a benefit to you and 1-2 million others and I asked if you would agree and instead you have brought up matters from a quarter of a century ago as your 'last words'.

You will know that the restrictions on the use of lead shot that got rolled out 21-25 years ago were because the UK signed up to the AEWA treaty. Over the last 25 years, 20 of which I have worked at BASC I have seen no evidence of 'small token gestures' rather I have seen BASC fighting for all shooting disciplines as threats have arisen and plenty of proactive work also. The BASC deer register is one of those proactive projects and I hope it helps a few folk find stalking opportunities in their area - it is nothing less and nothing more than that.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So your not discussing , your telling and that is the issue here . Two ears one mouth principle would be far better .
I am an have been a BASC member for many decades , have been on the supplier list yet never took a penny for my work . Yes i am a critic and yeah i was putting my details down and then I thought on and the risk to the org is quite clear .
Basc should not become a sporting agent paid or unpaid , named or not named with the title and the first time a BASC employee can be criticised for "favour" or "involvement" if this scheme comes off you might want to recall what i am saying - It doesn't even need to be backed with any more than a spurious Rumour.
Dangerous ground to tread indeed !
Recently published in the BASC journal about BASC having secured Sika stalking in my own area of Bowland ( only a couple of months ago) . I phoned around and nobody local seemed to know anything , until i pushed for the info and was told " we do not have this ground for stalking generally , its for those who wish to take level 2 with us to use for getting thier level 2 " and no we cant say where it is" . So I could not even get where it was , of course it will come out in the wash soon enough. If BASC dont get what risks are at stake here , then soon enough i am sure you will

"Two ears one mouth" indeed - I have 'listened' to all your comments in last week or two and I have stated that I would appreciate if you would not post derogatory comments putting into question the integrity of BASC staff. I have also explained that whatever troubles you about the register you are way way out of order with your earlier totally unjustified comments.

Clearly from your comments above, you have not listened to my concerns and continue in the same vein (so you might take your own advice of "Two ears one mouth") making frankly weird assertions about BASC staff.

Perhaps it's my failing for not understanding what you are getting at so if you have concerns please PM me to arrange a phone call so that I can listen to your concerns. This might be more productive than vague comments on this forum.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I would rather they spent our money in real ways that matter though - rather than addressing issues that are not there

As I explained earlier BASC works across many different areas all at the same time. Just because BASC publishes an update on one thing does not mean it downs tools on everything else. It is a large organisation promoting and protecting shooting across multiple issues and across the UK and beyond. You may not be interested in potential deer stalking opportunities in your area via the new BASC register but others not so fortunate as you may welcome that. Likewise those interested in deer stalking opportunities in your area may think that our work on gamebird releasing in your area is not addressing their concerns. Scale that up and you may see the myriad things that cross our desks daily.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Stanley Duncan in 1908,WAGBI ( Remember them) from what I've read about him. Not sure he would have been that keen on all these courses. I may be wrong, and some of our shooting organisations could be wrong too.

You are probably right. And you might find as you read further or speak to those in the wildfowling community with family connections to that era that the creation of WAGBI was controversial for many wildfowlers of that era and the post-1950s wave of wildfowling clubs being set up across the country was also controversial for many wildfowlers of that era.

 

[David Barker]

I am sure that some one from the BASC community will get a heads up to manage deer and i hope they do a good job. But as a gambling man i would not hedge my bets on a 1000 - 1 shot.

 

[AGR]

Neve mind, BASC, NGO, BDS, SGA, etc.

When are SD going to produce a list of 'competent stalkers', that what I want to know...

I suppose that will mean buying a landrover too?

 

[User00053]

Would hope BASC would use as an opportunity for some good pr down the road a little with testimonials from happy members complete with pictures and the full story of the journey.

 

[AGR]

I started to register as a DSC2 qualified and a long term BASC member , then I realised there is absolutely no safeguards to how the information is used . Seems like a good way for the local office to bag a lot of stalking for themselves and their mates to me .
Now if i am wrong here please feel free to post the safeguards that are being put in place BASC because i have grave doubts about this based on experiences, though the years . Like a BASC employee gaining stalking land or favour ??
I think BASC should stay well away from this its a nightmare in the making , one that very likely could finish or diminish trust in the current membership ( even via a few whispers)
Stick to what BASC have always done and leave well alone , been to many close calls for BASC regards the Wildfowling clubs in the past !

Bit like the Deer Initiative you mean?

 

[Overlay]

Very much like going to university in some cases many graduates with fewer related jobs in some cases but plenty of available training to qualify some for level entry who will be over educated but gives hope and some will be lucky and have to throw more dosh at it to achieve their goals. Maybe far better pay outfitter have shot go home and forget without the romance.
Must be torment for many who want to stalk for recreational purposes.

Yep that’s a tidy way around it, but the outfitter has to comply the same as any other individual - training, commercial insurance paying for leases etc etc that's were there is a price tag attached for convenience and stalking access minus all the background work like chillers HACCP a long list
Everyone has a choice, a deer management lease is available to all, whether you want to jump through the hoops is up to the individual or pay an outfitter. Or even be lucky in getting a piece of ground the old way

 

[Dickie]

Perhaps they could have if you’re BASC employee or council member you can’t be on the register!

 

[User00053]

Yep that’s a tidy way around it, but the outfitter has to comply the same as any other individual - training, commercial insurance paying for leases etc etc that's were there is a price tag attached for convenience and stalking access minus all the background work like chillers HACCP a long list
Everyone has a choice, a deer management lease is available to all, whether you want to jump through the hoops is up to the individual or pay an outfitter. Or even be lucky in getting a piece of ground the old way

Fully appreciate all points and the best of British to all in whatever the individuals choice may be along his/her personal journey.
Very much a long list that is for sure and they deserve every penny they can make and if broken down into hours and self discipline am sure not for all like so many self driven people.
From my perspective in a selfish sense whilst working with deer was always employed and all treated as a job of work with all tools and training paid for and certainly nothing I would choose as a hobby.

 

[Rake Aboot]

So as a farmer I’m responsible for my employees in the workplace, which is the whole farm and if I give someone permission (paid or not) to shot on my land I’m ultimately responsible for their actions according to the HSE on the Safe use of guns in the work place.



So I have a deer problem and Mr I’ve been shooting 20 yrs turns up with no qualifications and there’s is an accident involving the shooter I’m in the sh*t, because I should have gone through the safe use of firearms with him and what do I know about firearms.



Another stalker turns up with (as you put it) his shiny DSC 1 2 quality qualifications he’s already started ticking a few box’s for me, because I can say I’d checked his qualifications and I’ve done what the HSE have asked for.



HSE

SAFE USE OF GUNS.

Introduction

This guidance is for employers and others whose work

involves the use of rifles and shotguns, for example

gamekeepers and farmers. Following this advice will

help ensure that you use your gun safely and meet

your legal obligations. It is not a substitute for proper

instruction and training.

This information sheet replaces the previous HSE

publication Guns (AS7).

What the law says

Employers and people who ‘conduct an undertaking’

involving the use of guns have a legal duty under the

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to take all

reasonably practicable measures so that no one is put

at risk.

In this sense, an ‘undertaking’ does not necessarily

need to involve employment or commercial gain.

The duty may extend to a wide range of individuals,

including farm staff, gamekeepers, beaters, pickers-

up, drivers, guests, volunteers and members of the

public. In addition, employees have responsibilities

for their own health and safety and for that of other

people who may be put at risk by their work.



Training and supervision

Anybody handling a gun ought to have received

instruction on safe use. In addition, training on safe

use is a legal requirement for all those using work

equipment. This includes guns when used as part of

a work activity. Suitable training courses are available

and useful contacts are listed in the ‘Find out more’

section. Close supervision of inexperienced gun users

is usually appropriate. This is a legal requirement for

employees.

So you pay all your stalkers and folk who shoot on your ground ?

Cause none of that is a requirement for people who simply have permission to shoot over your land .

 

[VSS]

So you pay all your stalkers and folk who shoot on your ground ?

Cause none of that is a requirement for people who simply have permission to shoot over your land .

Actually I think it is.
Certainly a farmer could be held liable for an accident caused by someone shooting on the land with his permission, if it could be shown that the farmer had not exercised due diligence in ensuring that the person he'd given permission to was suitably trained and safe.

 

[Rake Aboot]

That rules out nearly every single shooter in the uk. From air
Rifle to centre fire

And I don’t actually think it is bud, none of them are employees , they are simply engaging in a hobby, same as metal detectorists or somebody flying a model airplane etc.
It’s only if they are entering a contract to provide a service.
I.e an employee, or servant.

 

[Overlay]

That rules out nearly every single shooter in the uk. From air
Rifle to centre fire

And I don’t actually think it is bud, none of them are employees , they are simply engaging in a hobby, same as metal detectorists or somebody flying a model airplane etc.
It’s only if they are entering a contract to provide a service.
I.e an employee, or servant.

Rake aboot

Hobby or not - let's hope no shooting person or landowner has to find out because someone WILL be held to account

 

[baguio]

That rules out nearly every single shooter in the uk. From air
Rifle to centre fire

And I don’t actually think it is bud, none of them are employees , they are simply engaging in a hobby, same as metal detectorists or somebody flying a model airplane etc.
It’s only if they are entering a contract to provide a service.
I.e an employee, or servant.

A big percentage of the land I and a select few others manage iss on the basis that we tick all of the boxes for exactly the reasons of due diligence mentioned on here by a few posters now. VSS is a land owner and has therefore probably hired in tradesman on this basis. It's fact that due diligence protects land owners from the prosecution in the event of an accident.

 

[finnbear270]

Anyone who gives permission to shoot over land where they are entitled to, would definately be involved in any discussions re culpability over death / injury caused by said permission user, seems some feel the opposite to be the case.

So as a farmer I’m responsible for my employees in the workplace, which is the whole farm and if I give someone permission (paid or not) to shot on my land I’m ultimately responsible for their actions according to the HSE on the Safe use of guns in the work place.



So I have a deer problem and Mr I’ve been shooting 20 yrs turns up with no qualifications and there’s is an accident involving the shooter I’m in the sh*t, because I should have gone through the safe use of firearms with him and what do I know about firearms.



Another stalker turns up with (as you put it) his shiny DSC 1 2 quality qualifications he’s already started ticking a few box’s for me, because I can say I’d checked his qualifications and I’ve done what the HSE have asked for.



HSE

SAFE USE OF GUNS.

Introduction

This guidance is for employers and others whose work

involves the use of rifles and shotguns, for example

gamekeepers and farmers. Following this advice will

help ensure that you use your gun safely and meet

your legal obligations. It is not a substitute for proper

instruction and training.

This information sheet replaces the previous HSE

publication Guns (AS7).

What the law says

Employers and people who ‘conduct an undertaking’

involving the use of guns have a legal duty under the

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to take all

reasonably practicable measures so that no one is put

at risk.

In this sense, an ‘undertaking’ does not necessarily

need to involve employment or commercial gain.

The duty may extend to a wide range of individuals,

including farm staff, gamekeepers, beaters, pickers-

up, drivers, guests, volunteers and members of the

public. In addition, employees have responsibilities

for their own health and safety and for that of other

people who may be put at risk by their work.



Training and supervision

Anybody handling a gun ought to have received

instruction on safe use. In addition, training on safe

use is a legal requirement for all those using work

equipment. This includes guns when used as part of

a work activity. Suitable training courses are available

and useful contacts are listed in the ‘Find out more’

section. Close supervision of inexperienced gun users

is usually appropriate. This is a legal requirement for

employees.

 

[VSS]

That rules out nearly every single shooter in the uk. From air
Rifle to centre fire

And I don’t actually think it is bud, none of them are employees , they are simply engaging in a hobby, same as metal detectorists or somebody flying a model airplane etc.
It’s only if they are entering a contract to provide a service.
I.e an employee, or servant.

Unfortunately it's not so simple (although it does perhaps highlight why some farmers are only prepared to give verbal, not written, permission).
As a landowner, I have a duty of care to anyone on my land, whether they have permission to be there or not. So, for example, if a trespasser drowns in the slurry pit or falls down an uncovered well on my land, there is every likelihood I will be in trouble.
The duty of care doesn't only extend to people with whom I have a contract.
So yes, if I give permission for someone to pursue their hobby on my land I need to exercise due diligence in ensuring that their safety (and the safety of anyone else using the land) is maintained. Checking that they were suitably trained would be part of this.
Obviously I would hope my insurance would cover any eventuality, but insurance companies will do there best to wriggle out of it if it can be shown that I was in any way negligent.

 

[sikamalc]

Ok I think we have seen enough of people taking this off thread. And BASC response is, as far as I can see not been patronising. If people want to join their programme, go ahead, if not walk on by. Carry on with life.

 

[Bowland blades]

Bit like the Deer Initiative you mean?

cant comment on the deer initiative . I think anyone can raise potentially big risks to an ORGANISATION that gets into this , way too open to corruption or favour ! Rumour alone would be enough in many cases .