Effect of faster twist on short bullets

Do you mean spin drift?
I think he means theory, where "over stabilized" bullet does not follow tangent of the trajectory, but flies a bit "nose up" resulting in lower BC, larger drift etc. IIRC this theory is debunked, but cannot remember for sure. Anyway only relevant at distances 500-600 meters plus.
 
At what MV?

3750ft/sec

I've used Sierra Blitzking 40gn which were good, but the Hornady V-MAX 40gns were ever so slightly better in terms of accuracy, and slightly quicker although I was using the same powder load so the only other significant factor would be bullet length/seating depth.
 
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I think he means theory, where "over stabilized" bullet does not follow tangent of the trajectory, but flies a bit "nose up" resulting in lower BC, larger drift etc. IIRC this theory is debunked, but cannot remember for sure. Anyway only relevant at distances 500-600 meters plus.
You are correct
Also not an actual “thing”
Proven to not be the case by Brian Litz
Bullets that are stable will always fly aligned with the axis of spin
 
3750ft/sec

I've used Sierra Blitzking 40gn which were good, but the Hornady V-MAX 40gns were ever so slightly better in terms of accuracy, and slightly quicker although I was using the same powder load so the only other significant factor would be bullet length/seating depth.
Ah! I was getting fairly acceptable groups at moderate MVs but thought it was pointless. As I upped the powder to what others said they were using, 23gr of RL7, the groups opened up. Up to 3400+ fps so far. Perhaps I shall have to put a bit more powder in the case!
Tikka T3 24" barrel,1-in-8" twist.
 
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I'm using Norma N200 powder, don't have my reloading records with me but it's somewhere around 27gn. Primers look good and easy fired case extraction. The Hornady Factory loaded 40gn VMAX were doing a similar speed - even slightly faster at 3780 ft/sec, although sadly out of production now.
 
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Ah! I was getting fairly acceptable groups at moderate MVs but thought it was pointless. As I upped the powder to what others said they were using, 23gr of RL7, the groups opened up. Up to 3400+ fps so far. Perhaps I shall have to put a bit more powder in the case!
Tikka T3 24" barrel,1-in-8" twist.
I'm using N120 23.2 grains in a 1in 8 twist 24in Tikka CTR .223 3800 fps, thumbnail sized groups at 100 yards, it seems it either works or it doesn't. If I run them in my 22.250 at that speed with a 1 in 14 twist it shoots about 1 moa at 100 yards although its most likely ready for a new barrel.
 
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My 1:8 Border match barrel will only shot 60 grn Vmax. Anything lighter might as well use a shot gun. 69 TMK in it are super accurate .
Understanding firearms ballistics may be a source of some info on this issue.
D
 
Some 8/9 twist will shoot lighter bullets

Not all

There is also a relationship with VO and stability - faster cartridges tend to “get away” with light bullets nd fast twist barrels

Slower cartridges not so
 
Its quite hard to over spin a bullet , when you do the bullet can self destruct . Wind traveling up a slope can raise a bullet , more so if its 90 degrees from your RHS and you hence the std RH twist . In most deer hunting situations it matters little .
However spinning light thin jacketed varmint type bullets at high speed the bullet can " dust" ie break up totally in the air !
How does this effect 99.999 % of stalkers ? Not much at all tbf other than understanding wind reading when your looking at slopes in the ground getting over or under the spin ( over the spin lowers impact ) .
Dont remember witnessing a deer bullet break up from being over rotated at a fast enough velocity ever . I have seen it in open class events on the range though.
Quite common that too slow a twist rate just wont stabilize in a slower twist , but the faster twists are more forgiving than many think. 1-8 twist 223 etc with thin jacketed 50 grain lead is commonly done by many
 
Its quite hard to over spin a bullet , when you do the bullet can self destruct . Wind traveling up a slope can raise a bullet , more so if its 90 degrees from your RHS and you hence the std RH twist . In most deer hunting situations it matters little .
However spinning light thin jacketed varmint type bullets at high speed the bullet can " dust" ie break up totally in the air !
How does this effect 99.999 % of stalkers ? Not much at all tbf other than understanding wind reading when your looking at slopes in the ground getting over or under the spin ( over the spin lowers impact ) .
Dont remember witnessing a deer bullet break up from being over rotated at a fast enough velocity ever . I have seen it in open class events on the range though.
Quite common that too slow a twist rate just wont stabilize in a slower twist , but the faster twists are more forgiving than many think. 1-8 twist 223 etc with thin jacketed 50 grain lead is commonly done by many
i have experienced bullets 'blow' up , couldn't understand why i wasn't hitting the target with a 22-250 but when you stood behind me on the range you could see a grey cloud in front of the gun on firing , different ammo was fine no grey cloud and a hole in the target , could have been a rough bore not helping in the Ruger no1 i had at the time , i never did get that rifle to shoot well enough but sadly i have a weakness for Ruger number 1's
 
I think he means theory, where "over stabilized" bullet does not follow tangent of the trajectory, but flies a bit "nose up" resulting in lower BC, larger drift etc. IIRC this theory is debunked, but cannot remember for sure. Anyway only relevant at distances 500-600 meters plus.

Yes, you're correct. Bryan Litz amongst others has shown how this old theory is quite incorrect.

The original reason for using the absolutely lowest twist rate that barely stabilised the bullet was poor quality out of balance projectiles. The faster they were spun, the more they deviated in flight especially at longer distances. The ultimate in this regard (I among others would say 'nadir') was GB NRA 'Target Rifle' from its inception in 1968 to the 1990s when the fixation with TR's past links to .303 Service Rifle saw mandated use of military-spec 7.62 FMJ ammunition whose bullets were so poor that a turn in 14-inches twist was the norm. (The cases were rubbish too, hence the 4-lug SWING/Paramount/RPA action, four equally space lugs giving best results with brass with out-of-square case-heads.)

Today, 10-twist is almost the 308 Win norm for long-range FTR-class with 9.5 and even 9 twists also used (long 200gn bullets). However, practical long-range work by Bryan Litz and the 185gn Berger Juggernaut suggests better long-range results might come from using 8-twist with the cartridge. (Modern Advancements in Long-Range Shooting published by Applied Ballistics LLC can't remember which particular volume).

Litz and many other ballisticians now appear to be saying that in ballistic terms alone, you cannot over-spin modern bullets provided their structural integrity isn't compromised (bullet blow-up). Back when I shot FTR at national level, I mostly shot Berger 155.5s in a 10-twist barrel. In UK conditions, this combination gives an Sg (coefficient of stability) of 2.31 where 1.5 is optimal. When I competed at Raton, New Mexico in 2013 at 7,500 ft ASL / 90s F temperatures, that rose to 3.25, this applying to most everyone in the 14-strong UK contingent, and a value that would have been regarded as massively too high not that many years before. Results were uniformly good in 800-1,000 yards competitions. (To get rid of our loaded ammunition before flying back, there was a final fun-session shooting first at a steel buffalo silhouette, then at ever smaller rocks at over 1,400 yards with astonishing results - also a tribute to the super-clear dry air in New Mexico and the resulting superb view through riflescopes.)

That's not to say that specialised competition applications should dictate practices in more common field and target situations, rather to show that the over-spinning bogeyman really doesn't apply and going for a tad faster twist rate than the norm is better (much better) than going for a tad slower, again with the proviso that it doesn't overstress some models of lightweight frangible varmint bullets.
 
You are correct
Also not an actual “thing”
Proven to not be the case by Brian Litz
Bullets that are stable will always fly aligned with the axis of spin
Indeed the ideal calibre trials used a radar to plot stability along with hanging paper sheets to check for yaw. Some impact upon stability is from the barrel harmonisation, some from the action and most from the bullet and velocity being matched
 
. However, practical long-range work by Bryan Litz and the 185gn Berger Juggernaut suggests better long-range results might come from using 8-twist with the cartridge. (Modern Advancements in Long-Range Shooting published by Applied Ballistics LLC can't remember which particular volume).

Litz and many other ballisticians now appear to be saying that in ballistic terms alone, you cannot over-spin modern bullets provided their structural integrity isn't compromised (bullet blow-)

.
dont claim to be in the same class but all the rifles I am building for my own use or customers who are open to taking advice are at least one twist rate faster than standard spec

300Norma 1:8”
308 1:8-1.9”
6.5 Grendel 1:7”
6.5-284 1:7” (all 6.5s in 1:7”)
7PRC 1:7”
.223 1:7”
.222 1:8”


We have had several custom rifles in for load development with quite frankly the WRONG twist rate
6.5s with 1:9 and 1:9.5

When working with non lead monolithic bullets its almost impossible to use an appropriate weight class bullet with such mismatched twist rates

I genuinely can’t see an issue with faster twists
Can only see downsides to slow twists

The cartridges with integrity issues and self destructing bullets are the massively overbore ones shooting light for calibre rounds at MVs that start with a 4
Long barrelled versions of 22-250, 22-243, 220swift, 204ruger/prac/tac, etc

Its reportedly the reason PO Ackley failed to achieve his holy grail of a 5000fps in his quest for light varmint rifle shooting sub or similar 50gr bullets at very high velocities

He did report the significantly and disproportionate increase in terminal effect from a very light bullet on game of a size that you would not associate the bullet calibre and weight being a good or lethal match
.224 sub 50gr on Javelinas for example

The South Africans have taken this one step further with the .17 21gr Peregrine monolithics in 17 Hornet
Running at 4500fps they have proven devastating on warthog and small deer
 
dont claim to be in the same class but all the rifles I am building for my own use or customers who are open to taking advice are at least one twist rate faster than standard spec

300Norma 1:8”
308 1:8-1.9”
6.5 Grendel 1:7”
6.5-284 1:7” (all 6.5s in 1:7”)
7PRC 1:7”
.223 1:7”
.222 1:8”


We have had several custom rifles in for load development with quite frankly the WRONG twist rate
6.5s with 1:9 and 1:9.5

When working with non lead monolithic bullets its almost impossible to use an appropriate weight class bullet with such mismatched twist rates

I genuinely can’t see an issue with faster twists
Can only see downsides to slow twists

The cartridges with integrity issues and self destructing bullets are the massively overbore ones shooting light for calibre rounds at MVs that start with a 4
Long barrelled versions of 22-250, 22-243, 220swift, 204ruger/prac/tac, etc

Its reportedly the reason PO Ackley failed to achieve his holy grail of a 5000fps in his quest for light varmint rifle shooting sub or similar 50gr bullets at very high velocities

He did report the significantly and disproportionate increase in terminal effect from a very light bullet on game of a size that you would not associate the bullet calibre and weight being a good or lethal match
.224 sub 50gr on Javelinas for example

The South Africans have taken this one step further with the .17 21gr Peregrine monolithics in 17 Hornet
Running at 4500fps they have proven devastating on warthog and small deer
Some of those "small deer " are like Hares in size mind !
 
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