Where to aim for neck shots

[J@son]

And the " hilar shot" "gives you a clear aimimg point"? and "doesnt easily result in wounding" ? People take the broadside shot for one reason, it gives the largest margin for error, hit in exactly the right spot and its down and out, miss the right spot and the deer will still die, but not instantly.
Now hitting the right spot on the " hilar" as every bit as difficult as hitting the right spot on the neck.

Not sure I understand what you mean. Executing a perfect hilar shot maybe just as difficult as hitting your mark on a perfect neck shot. But a hilar allows for a much greater margin of error... So on this basis it's a much safer shot placement. If your shot goes high, low or left (assuming the deer is facing right) you've still got a very dead deer with a hilar... Not so with a neck shot. I reckon I neck shoot 70% of what I shoot and use a hilar shot on the rest. Obviously the food pipe is damaged by a neck shot but this is never caused me a problem. I just tired off as usual to prevent contamination.

 

[Siggy]

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Hinds, does and calves have skinny little necks. The target area is small.

I’d disagree with this - the spinal cord and blood vessels are roughly the same size between males and females, it’s just that on males it’s hidden under mane and/or muscle - this makes males harder because it makes identifying the target area in the neck harder. With hinds/does your pretty much know if you are on or off.
Obviously frangible bullets give you a greater margin of error but if you are routinely shooting to the chest with non-toxic round that doesn’t shatter it’s an issue

 

[levigsp]

Not sure I understand what you mean. Executing a perfect hilar shot maybe just as difficult as hitting your mark on a perfect neck shot. But a hilar allows for a much greater margin of error... So on this basis it's a much safer shot placement. If your shot goes high, low or left (assuming the deer is facing right) you've still got a very dead deer with a hilar... Not so with a neck shot. I reckon I neck shoot 70% of what I shoot and use a hilar shot on the rest. Obviously the food pipe is damaged by a neck shot but this is never caused me a problem. I just tired off as usual to prevent contamination.

I mean exactly what I said! the post said the neck shot didn't give you an exact target, well neither does the hilar. Both could result in wounding. I did say people take broadside shots because of the greater margin of error, but I have gone to many hundreds of dear taken with broadside shots that were injured and still alive, in particular I have gone to some shot by Hilar "experts".
Putting it bluntly, we should all take the shot we are comfortable with, at the ranges were are happy to do so and hope we cause as little suffering as possible.
As an afterthought, If I or my guests had to take Hilar, or any broadside heart lung shot on my Roe grounds, they would be reduced to about 10% of the available deer.
I would say from May to End of November 90% of the shots are taken where the body cannot be seen.

 

[Mickeydredd]

That may be, however there is a reason why we have so many deer as they are left for a "couple more years" times that by a very large number and the couple more years equates to a lots more food.

I know, but that isn't the point I was making. I don't think Dunwater was referencing leaving deer on the ground for trophy purposes either tbf.

 

[Tim.243]

I know, but that isn't the point I was making. I don't think Dunwater was referencing leaving deer on the ground for trophy purposes either tbf.

With respect we can not/should/not speak as to what others are thinking
But what is clear is the trophy's are treated different to others in most cases as they don't become trophy's over night so are left. Fallow bucks 70/80 kg dressed twice the weight of a big dressed fallow doe circa 30/40k bet they don't eat the same.

 

[tackb]

The advantage of frangible bullets is in people's heads. You are aiming for the brain or the spinal cord. Hit anything else, with any bullet design and the deer won't die. Hit the right place even with FMJ the deer will die.

All frangible bullets do is make extra mess.

well not exactly

the temporary and permanent wound channels differ between bullets so a more frangible bullet usually creates a larger permanent and temp wound channel albeit often shallower which isn't usually a problem on neck shots therefore giving you a slightly bigger margin for error , also if you are head or neck shooting the more frangible the bullet the less penetration which in turn may help with secondary projectiles travelling through the target and doing damage , obviously no substitute for a proper backstop but does help none the less. Wound ballistics is a facinating subject if only because there are so many variables !

i once knew a park culler that used a .243win with 55gr ballistic tips but only head shots from the rear/side and didn't get exits.

 

[Selous]

And the " hilar shot" "gives you a clear aimimg point"? and "doesnt easily result in wounding" ? People take the broadside shot for one reason, it gives the largest margin for error, hit in exactly the right spot and its down and out, miss the right spot and the deer will still die, but not instantly.
Now hitting the right spot on the " hilar" as every bit as difficult as hitting the right spot on the neck.

I take your point that the hilar shot needs to be precise but as you say the margin for error is MUCH larger

 

[VSS]

I really am beginning to question this whole "margin for error" business.
People will happily shoot squirrels with a rifle, yet go to pieces when faced with the prospect of trying to hit a squirrel-sized part of a deer, unless they've got their "comfort blanket" in the form of "margin for error".
What exactly is being achieved by spending time on the range punching sub- moa holes, if the skills aren't transferable to the field, or confidence isn't being raised? Nothing much.

I think, maybe, instead of concentrating on producing those impossibly tiny groups (because, let's face it, anything under 2" is bloody good  if it can be achieved consistently), people should instead be looking at comfortable shooting positions, rifle fit, cheek weld, etc etc to build confidence in actually taking shots without the need for a huge "margin for error".

If you can build confidence enough to eliminate the feeling that you need a large margin for error (in other words, have a bit more faith in your own ability) and combine that with really learning about deer anatomy, then pretty much any deer that presents itself within range is fair game (subject to backstop, of course) because there's almost always a shot that can be taken effectively if you're not agonising over what you read in a text book or online.

When I started stalking, I based most of my opinions on what I read on here, but as my experience has developed so have my own opinions. I admit I am somewhat fortunate in having my own deer park which has enabled me to develop skills (and maybe take greater risks as part of the learning process) in a fairly controlled environment, but I've had to learn as I go along, just like everyone else.

One thing I have really benefitted from was a 2-day marksmanship training course, run by Bradley Bourner. If ever you get the chance to attend one of his courses, I'd recommend it.

 

[VSS]

i once knew a park culler that used a .243win with 55gr ballistic tips but only head shots from the rear/side and didn't get exits.

I cull park deer with a 243, using 58 grain ballistic tips. Frontal head shots only. Very, very effective.

 

[levigsp]

I take your point that the hilar shot needs to be precise but as you say the margin for error is MUCH larger

And much more chance of injury!

 

[Dunwaters]

Does your trophy deer eat any different to hinds/does/calves?

Answer NO, just more reasons this "deer management" bolocks, is just playing at Jurassic Park

After all the heads/feet have been cut off they hang in the Game Dealers and go through the same process.

Yes, trophy deer actually taste like crap compared to a nice plump hind or calf, especially during the rut and late winter, moreover they weigh around 50% more so I get paid a premium for those crap tasting stinky carcass.
My personal venison is always an early season pricket or 6 pointer, then hinds and calves. Any stag shot after the middle of September is probably too gamey for my taste, so strictly for the weigh and pay.
I get paid for the head if I’m taking out a guest, that fee can be a multiple of the carcass value and is what the guest is actually paying for. That’s why I don’t really use or recommend that placement for stags.
As for management, I manage whatever I can see close that’s enough to the car to extract on my own , I only shoot up and always drag down.

 

[Limpo]

Initially I was very nervous about taking head shots, largely due to the stigma against it that I've picked up on from this site. However since I started head shooting a significant proportion of my annual cull, I have found that the fear is much, much worse than the reality.
The thing that really helps is that there is no "clutter" around the target area. No mass of neck or chest, causing you to have to estimate the precise place to try to place your shot. The target size is no different to that for a neck shot, I don't think, but at least you can see the target!
The eyes of the deer will always be in the same place relative to the point on the head that you want to hit, which is more than can be said for using the front leg (for example) as a guide to placing a chest shot. The leg could be forward or back, or the deer could be slightly quartering. So using that as a guide is an estimate at best. However, use the eyes as a guide to head shoot a deer looking straight at you and you know exactly where to aim, without any guesswork and without any distracting other parts of the deer's body in your sight picture.

If sub moa groups are the norm (as most shooters would have you believe) then there really is no challenge. But maybe they're not the norm? Maybe they're only the norm among the targets people post pictures of? The rest of the targets go in the bin.
If the targets people post on here are to be believed then I know that, compared to most, I am a very poor shot indeed!

Interesting point regarding the clutter and I thought earlier about one potential downside of the chest shot could be not having your scope focussed correctly (not yourself more a general observation if this makes sense?) Here's the scenario, you are plotted up waiting for the deer to exit the woods at about 100yds away, parallax set, scope focussed and magged perfectly when all of a sudden you hear a bark to your left hand side and another doe has entered the field 30m downwind of you and has cut your scent, swing the gun round all you see is a blurry outline until you bring your scope into focus then take the shot. On a broadside chest shot I wonder how many people would take the shot without re-focussing the scope?

 

[Dalua]

On a broadside chest shot I wonder how many people would take the shot without re-focussing the scope?

I don't think that would be necessary with my 'scopes?

 

[Selous]

And much more chance of injury!

How do you mean? On a roe if you are 3 inches from desired point of impact in any direction you will probably have a dead or immobile deer, not so with a neck shot

 

[J@son]

And much more chance of injury!

I don't agree. In fact I think the opposite is true. I think you are more likely to injure a deer with a badly attempted H&L shot than you are with a poorly placed hilar shot . I suspect we can all agree that you shouldn't pull the trigger unless you are confident of hitting your mark. Nevertheless mistakes happen. So for this reason I think a hilar shot is a better bet than a H&L. What's more get it right and the deer will drop on the spot - whereas deer usually run on when hit in the heart/lungs. I don't understand why anyone would think the POA for a hilar shot is anymore difficult to locate than a H&L shot - I use the leading edge of the front legs to give me my line, go halfway up the body then drop just a tiny bit.

 

[levigsp]

How do you mean? On a roe if you are 3 inches from desired point of impact in any direction you will probably have a dead or immobile deer, not so with a neck shot

Not so Im afraid. Neck shot will result in dead, or close to roe most of the time and retrievable.
Poorly place body shots result in runners, I have had my dog track Roe 1/2 mile a few time and bullets just needled the lung etc. Or in case of hilar shot, trachea ruptured and same, the deer run.
I aways get novices to take heart lung shot, but that does not make it the safest shot.
When I was destroying Roe as a pest, I away used varmint bullets and hit heart lung area for the first while, later I started high shoulder and have stuck to that, although it destroys both shoulders.

 

[VSS]

. I suspect we can all agree that you shouldn't pull the trigger unless you are confident of hitting your mark.

I don't think people are confident of hitting the mark. If they were, there wouldn't be this constant repetition of the words "margin for error".

I think a hilar shot is a better bet than a H&L. What's more get it right and the deer will drop on the spot - whereas deer usually run on when hit in the heart/lungs. I don't understand why anyone would think the POA for a hilar shot is anymore difficult to locate than a H&L shot -

Agree

 

[Mungo]

I’m slightly suspicious of hilar shots. It’s a bit too easy to pull it too far forward and create a nasty brisket wound, or blow out the trachea. Especially if you misjudge the quartering angle.

I had one recently where I thought it was standing perfectly square, when in fact it was quartering away quite a lot more than I realised. I was very lucky - the shot hit an artery, and it bled out very fast as it ran off, so it dropped within 20 meters.

 

[25 Sharps]

That may be, however there is a reason why we have so many deer as they are left for a "couple more years" times that by a very large number and the couple more years equates to a lots more food.
A GM muntjac will eat just as many of your plants as a doe or one with a couple of stumps.

Leaving bucks and stags for a couple more years has sod all to do with it Tim. It’s the number of hinds/does that matters and they don’t get left for their heads to improve.

Trophies have value , whether you, I or anyone else likes it or not.

 

[Nickb]

Never had a problem with neck shot deer but have with head shot.
Each to their own as you are the one making the decision on whether to shoot or not.
I prefer a high lung shot as usually produces a deer dropping on the spot.
I remember one occasion night shooting sika where I always neck shot with no problem until one night had a stag facing me and could only see its head , the shot was a bit low striking it in the nose . Even after searching for hours with a trained deer dog the stag was never recovered.