Home Defence

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Definitely don’t poke the deer rifle out of the window and take a shot.
Really?

Notwithstanding the obvious 'online caveat'...


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If I saw that another was in mortal danger from an unlawful act, (and I honestly believed that to be the case), and I was in a position to save their life, I hope I would have the courage to take all and every measure to do so. All and every measure.

It is what society asks others to do, on our behalf every day.

There was a saying 'back in the day' - 'better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six'...
 
Firearms are correctly not permitted in a self defence plea
Are you thinking of the use of self-defense as a 'good reason to possess' as far as grant of FAC goes? Apparently in October 1946 the Home Secretary told parliament that his department no longer considered personal protection a 'good reason'.
However, the Home Secretary telling parliament what his department is doing doesn't make a law - and I think in NI, things remain quite different.

Nor can I see that that would lead to the use of firearms justifiably to hand from being excluded from consideration as a 'reasonable' means of self-defence - depending on the circumstances.
 
Really?

Notwithstanding the obvious 'online caveat'...


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If I saw that another was in mortal danger from an unlawful act, (and I honestly believed that to be the case), and I was in a position to save their life, I hope I would have the courage to take all and every measure to do so. All and every measure.

It is what society asks others to do, on our behalf every day.

There was a saying 'back in the day' - 'better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six'...
Yes, but as I posted later, you would have to be bloody sure you were doing the right thing and not shooting some other innocent person that was also trying to do the right thing.
 
I think it's fair to say, that if you're in your home, and one or more people break in, especially if you're woken in the middle of the night, most people would fear for their lives ?

Should the law be changed, so that these situations are automatically seen as "self defense", with very clear, simple guidelines ?
 
Notwithstanding that a typical stalking rifle is a deeply sub-optimal home defense weapon, I seem to remember being advised to explain that "I couldn't sleep and happened to be cleaning it at the time" might be a reasonable justification as to why you happened to have it to hand at time of an "incident". I'm not going to say any more than that as they probably need to keep their pension!
 
If someone is invading your home, one of the best self defence weapons you could choose would be a fire extinguisher, preferably dry powder.
But some people have an allergic reaction to the dry powder so it could kill them.

If you just happened to be at the table cleaning your firearm and shot them advancing toward you you might have a chance, but watch out for Mr big in the shower if you shoot them in the back.
 

Using reasonable force against intruders​

You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or others if a crime is taking place inside your home.
This means you can:
  • protect yourself ‘in the heat of the moment’ - this includes using an object as a weapon
  • stop an intruder running off - for example by tackling them to the ground
There’s no specific definition of ‘reasonable force’ - it depends on the circumstances. If you only did what you honestly thought was necessary at the time, this would provide strong evidence that you acted within the law. Read guidance from the Crown Prosecution Service (PDF, 136KB).
You do not have to wait to be attacked before defending yourself in your home.
However, you could be prosecuted if, for example, you:
  • carry on attacking the intruder even if you’re no longer in danger
  • pre-plan a trap for someone - rather than involve the police
 
Are you thinking of the use of self-defense as a 'good reason to possess' as far as grant of FAC goes? Apparently in October 1946 the Home Secretary told parliament that his department no longer considered personal protection a 'good reason'.
However, the Home Secretary telling parliament what his department is doing doesn't make a law - and I think in NI, things remain quite different.

Nor can I see that that would lead to the use of firearms justifiably to hand from being excluded from consideration as a 'reasonable' means of self-defence - depending on the circumstances.
No what i am saying in English law a firearm is not allowed to be used under a plea self defence. Northern Ireland i know little of other than handguns are permitted there and the RUC guys took the issued pistols everywhere even to use the the toilet
 
Householders and the use of force against intruders
Joint Public Statement from the Crown Prosecution Service and the
Association of Chief Police Officers
What is the purpose of this statement?
It is a rare and frightening prospect to be confronted by an intruder in your own
home. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and Chief Constables are responding
to public concern over the support offered by the law and confusion about
householders defending themselves. We want a criminal justice system that reaches
fair decisions, has the confidence of law abiding citizens and encourages them
actively to support the police and prosecutors in the fight against crime.
Wherever possible you should call the police. The following summarises the position
when you are faced with an intruder in your home, and provides a brief overview of
how the police and CPS will deal with any such events.
Does the law protect me? What is 'reasonable force'?
Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an
arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgments over the
level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you
honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would
be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self-defence. This is still the
case if you use something to hand as a weapon.
As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more
force you can lawfully use in self-defence.
What amounts to disproportionate force? I’ve heard I can use that.
The force you use must always be reasonable in the circumstances as you believe
them to be. Where you are defending yourself or others from intruders in your home
it might still be reasonable in the circumstances for you to use a degree of force that
is subsequently considered to be disproportionate, perhaps if you are acting in
extreme circumstances in the heat of the moment and don’t have a chance to think
about exactly how much force would be necessary to repel the intruder: it might
seem reasonable to you at the time but with hindsight, your actions may seem
disproportionate. The law will give you the benefit of the doubt in these
circumstances.
This only applies if you were acting in self-defence or to protect others in your home
and the force you used was disproportionate – disproportionate force to protect
property is still unlawful.
I’ve heard that I can’t use grossly disproportionate force. What
does that mean?
If your action was ‘over the top’ or a calculated action of revenge or retribution for
example, this might amount to grossly disproportionate force for which the law does
not protect you. If for example you had knocked an intruder unconscious and then
went on to kick and punch them repeatedly such an action would be more likely to be
considered grossly disproportionate.
Do I have to wait to be attacked?
No, not if you are in your own home and in fear for yourself or others. In those
circumstances the law does not require you to wait to be attacked before using
defensive force yourself.
What if the intruder dies?
If you have acted in reasonable self-defence, as described above, and the intruder
dies you will still have acted lawfully. Indeed, there are several such cases where the
householder has not been prosecuted. However, if, for example:
 having knocked someone unconscious, you then decided to further hurt or kill
them to punish them; or
 you knew of an intended intruder and set a trap to hurt or to kill them rather
than involve the police,
you would be acting with very excessive and gratuitous force and could be
prosecuted.
What if I chase them as they run off?
This situation is different as you are no longer acting in self-defence and so the same
degree of force may not be reasonable. However, you are still allowed to use
reasonable force to recover your property and make a citizen's arrest. You should
consider your own safety and, for example, whether the police have been called. A
rugby tackle or a single blow would probably be reasonable. Acting out of malice and
revenge with the intent of inflicting punishment through injury or death would not.
Will you believe the intruder rather than me?
The police weigh all the facts when investigating an incident. This includes the fact
that the intruder caused the situation to arise in the first place. We hope that
everyone understands that the police have a duty to investigate incidents involving a
death or injury. Things are not always as they seem. On occasions people pretend a
burglary has taken place to cover up other crimes such as a fight between drug
dealers.
How would the police and CPS handle the investigation and treat
me?
In considering these cases Chief Constables and the Director of Public Prosecutions
(Head of the CPS) are determined that they must be investigated and reviewed as
swiftly and as sympathetically as possible. In some cases, for instance where the
facts are very clear, or where less serious injuries are involved, the investigation will
be concluded very quickly, without any need for arrest. In more complicated cases,
such as where a death or serious injury occurs, more detailed enquiries will be
necessary. The police may need to conduct a forensic examination and/or obtain
your account of events.
To ensure such cases are dealt with as swiftly and sympathetically as possible, the
police and CPS will take relevant measures namely:
 An experienced investigator will oversee the case; and
 If it goes as far as CPS considering the evidence, the case will be prioritised
to ensure a senior lawyer makes a quick decision.
It is a fact that very few householders have ever been prosecuted for actions
resulting from the use of force against intruders.

 
Are you thinking of the use of self-defense as a 'good reason to possess' as far as grant of FAC goes? Apparently in October 1946 the Home Secretary told parliament that his department no longer considered personal protection a 'good reason'.
However, the Home Secretary telling parliament what his department is doing doesn't make a law - and I think in NI, things remain quite different.

Nor can I see that that would lead to the use of firearms justifiably to hand from being excluded from consideration as a 'reasonable' means of self-defence - depending on the circumstances.

Very interesting that.

If you had a link to any more information about the event mentioned in 1946 I’d love to learn more about that.
The NI thing has always interested me, mainly as it’s the UK
 
UK Law rightly gives you the freedom of action to use whatever force and/or implement you deem necessary to defend yourself or your loved ones in your home. If someone is charging at you and it's clear you are in serious physical danger, you're hardly going to be trying to remember para4 subsection 1a, and every judge in the land will support that. "Force" includes shouting, your fists, a knife or your 357 double. If the attack is imminent or ongoing the law protects your right to do this. If it has stopped though, reasonable action caveats change.
 
No what i am saying in English law a firearm is not allowed to be used under a plea self defence. Northern Ireland i know little of other than handguns are permitted there and the RUC guys took the issued pistols everywhere even to use the the toilet
No where in law does it state that a firearm is not allowed to be used in self defence.

The good reason justification of self defence as a reason to possess a firearm is no longer allowed on the mainland. It exists in NI to allow those individuals likely to be a target of any one of the idiotic dissident groups the ability to defend themselves and others from armed attacks, this does not only include the PSNI many members of this site if living or working in NI would be able to justify a PPW.

The police discharging a firearm or the military discharging a firearm are all covered by U.K. law, no exemption to the law exists. Each firearm discharge is investigated, if the shooting is found to be reasonable and proportionate the actions are after the fact Justified through investigation, the key being the perception and the fear the person had for the safety of themselves or others prior to shooting, preservation of life. This applies to any use of force. If the individual the force is used against dies it can be deemed justifiable homicide circumstance dependant.

Reasonable and proportionate force is reasonable and proportionate regardless if a firearm or a plant pot are used. The circumstances will dictate if the use was reasonable and proportionate.
 
Personally if I were to wake in the night hearing noises down stairs that I thought were intruders id still not go for the cabinet. I'm not knocking others views. Looking at it differently, if a firearm owner were to confront burglars with a gun and they run off, only to be nicked later. They tell the tale to the police, whats the chances of the firearm man keeping his certs?
 
Personally if I were to wake in the night hearing noises down stairs that I thought were intruders id still not go for the cabinet. I'm not knocking others views. Looking at it differently, if a firearm owner were to confront burglars with a gun and they run off, only to be nicked later. They tell the tale to the police, whats the chances of the firearm man keeping his certs?
 
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