CMA Inquiry into Vet Fees announced

[Apthorpe]

That tells us clearly that the Bubble will burst soon enough !

I don't follow the reasoning. The bubble certainly hasn't burst with dentistry or surgery.

Vets may like to claim they're not systematically overcharging but the share price movements of major veterinary operators clearly indicate that they probably do on a major scale.

 

[Dazb1967]

I had a meal in a curry house last night - what a rip off, £40 for two people, the ingredients probably cost £4, I could have done better myself.

Except it was 10.00pm, there were staff to pay, electricity to pay, rates to pay.

Yes but you didn't have to pay £40 consultation fee to see the menu

 

[Bowland blades]

I don't follow the reasoning. The bubble certainly hasn't burst with dentistry or surgery.

Vets may like to claim they're not systematically overcharging but the share price movements of major veterinary operators clearly indicate that they probably do on a major scale.

Every bubble only lasts so long , the trick is getting out at just the correct time .

 

[Apthorpe]

Every bubble only lasts so long , the trick is getting out at just the correct time .

Indeed, except when they aren't bubbles but permanent changes.

 

[Trickyd66]

I had a meal in a curry house last night - what a rip off, £40 for two people, the ingredients probably cost £4, I could have done better myself.

Except it was 10.00pm, there were staff to pay, electricity to pay, rates to pay.

I have no issue with what the vet charges for their time , overheads, and expertise. The thing that gets my goat is that they are mainly tied into contracts with a supplier of medication and seemingly a contract to sell said medication.

One of my previous dogs required meticam type medication, one bottle from the vet worked, and fair play to them they said that if I got a prescription I could buy much cheaper online.

Similar with flea / tick / worming. Historical I have done flea and tick over the warmer months, and wormed 3 monthly with no issues. They tried to change this to monthly combined (due to the potential risk of lung worm) with the "are you a member of our healthy pets plan"

Thankfully I just tell them what I need and they supply it.

 

[Bowland blades]

Indeed, except when they aren't bubbles but permanent changes.

I dont believe stability over the longer term no longer exists in any business , vets will of course still be in business but it will change . The targets set for the individual practices will not be obtained by all and a lot will be closed when they miss a few months targets .
Investors only want profits , they are not happy to weather rough patches in time.

 

[Selous]

The problem started many decades ago and is complex. It has been driven by many factors including increased client demands, vets desires to do their jobs to the highest standards and the change from small local practices to large corporate entities.
Going back 40 years practices were commonly small and mixed and many used the lucrative ministry work to cross subsidise other sectors of the business like the small animal side. Fees for drugs were kept high to keep professional fees lower as it’s easier to blame a faceless evil empire of a drug company. The practices were also run largely to provide a service to the community and as a result were deeply integrated into the rural community. Then the business advisor appeared on the horizon and encouraged practices to “charge realistically” for their time rather than having cross subsidisation from the ministry or drug sales. Practices became bigger and the provision of higher tech diagnostics and complex treatments became more common. The next stage was the development of avenues of specialisation where vets in the larger practices typically became large animal, small animal or perhaps exclusively equine. This was often welcomed by clients who saw better quality advice and outcomes. Referral only services started to spring up and offered more cutting edge services more akin to a human hospital at higher prices with lower client footfall owing to the increased time spent per case. Referral became more accessible and local vets became much less willing to “have a go”. In many cases this is a good thing as outcomes of the enthusiastic but poorly skilled surgeon could be highly variable! As referral became more common the business owners of the surrounding first opinion practices often saw the higher prices and upped their fees of similar services like X rays to a level just below that charged by the specialists. Practices started being bought up by the corporates and the values attached to practices soared so that the assistants could no longer afford to buy into the bricks and mortar of an existing practice. You really can’t blame a retiring partner for preferring to be paid £1M for his share of the practice by a corporate when George the hard working assistant could only raise £200k !!! What would you do if it were your retirement nest egg? This hike in market value of practices essentially killed the traditional practice structure of assistants progressing to partnership. This in turn led to vets not wanting to do after hours work so businesses like Vets Now sprung up to fill the gap. These are stand alone businesses that need to generate their own profit and have their own targets to meet without cross subsidisation from daytime work, hence the average transaction value of an after hours call has probably increased five fold over the last 15 years. Over the years the general public became Vet crazy and lapped up the fly on the wall programs whether they be spit and sawdust “Yorkshire Vet” or a cutting edge look at the crazy world of Fitzpatrick. Clients only wanted “gold standard” and the proliferation of pet and equine insurance made it all possible. Vets are now worried to make a mistake and so tend to refer more readily if finance allows. The scene was then set where the insurance companies made a good profit as the vet sector prices were low and corporate practice really started to take hold. Turnover became vital and targets were set and needed to be met. In return the corporates invested heavily in equipment and staff. For example clients are now expecting their animals to be attended 24 hours a day and guess what, that costs the practices big time as lone working regs mean that two members of staff are on site and awake at all times - probably £80k per year. Then COVID hits followed by the credit crunch. Pet insurance has become less shiny to the insurance companies as the practices are now charging more and have eliminated cross subsidisation so premiums rise and cover diminishes. Footfall into practices decreases so the managers (who are no longer vets in many cases) decide to hike the prices so they meet their turnover targets and embrace shrinkflation if they can! Spot the vicious circle!! The corporates pursue their management heavy style and don’t value the staff at ground level yet waste money in other areas. The bubble is really set to burst! Now insurance is unaffordable for many folks and the tipping point may have been reached. It needs to level out somehow. What I would ask that you remember is that the vets and nurses that you see are almost certainly not in control of the fees. They will probably find the costs embarrassingly high as well but there is little they can do to change it and equally need to keep their jobs and pay their mortgage at the end of the month just like everyone else. It is a bad situation for sure and it makes me despair for the profession that was previously held in very high regard.
Apologies for the incomplete ramble but it isn’t an easy situation to see a way out of.

 

[Tim.243]

The problem started many decades ago and is complex. It has been driven by many factors including increased client demands, vets desires to do their jobs to the highest standards and the change from small local practices to large corporate entities.
Going back 40 years practices were commonly small and mixed and many used the lucrative ministry work to cross subsidise other sectors of the business like the small animal side. Fees for drugs were kept high to keep professional fees lower as it’s easier to blame a faceless evil empire of a drug company. The practices were also run largely to provide a service to the community and as a result were deeply integrated into the rural community. Then the business advisor appeared on the horizon and encouraged practices to “charge realistically” for their time rather than having cross subsidisation from the ministry or drug sales. Practices became bigger and the provision of higher tech diagnostics and complex treatments became more common. The next stage was the development of avenues of specialisation where vets in the larger practices typically became large animal, small animal or perhaps exclusively equine. This was often welcomed by clients who saw better quality advice and outcomes. Referral only services started to spring up and offered more cutting edge services more akin to a human hospital at higher prices with lower client footfall owing to the increased time spent per case. Referral became more accessible and local vets became much less willing to “have a go”. In many cases this is a good thing as outcomes of the enthusiastic but poorly skilled surgeon could be highly variable! As referral became more common the business owners of the surrounding first opinion practices often saw the higher prices and upped their fees of similar services like X rays to a level just below that charged by the specialists. Practices started being bought up by the corporates and the values attached to practices soared so that the assistants could no longer afford to buy into the bricks and mortar of an existing practice. You really can’t blame a retiring partner for preferring to be paid £1M for his share of the practice by a corporate when George the hard working assistant could only raise £200k !!! What would you do if it were your retirement nest egg? This hike in market value of practices essentially killed the traditional practice structure of assistants progressing to partnership. This in turn led to vets not wanting to do after hours work so businesses like Vets Now sprung up to fill the gap. These are stand alone businesses that need to generate their own profit and have their own targets to meet without cross subsidisation from daytime work, hence the average transaction value of an after hours call has probably increased five fold over the last 15 years. Over the years the general public became Vet crazy and lapped up the fly on the wall programs whether they be spit and sawdust “Yorkshire Vet” or a cutting edge look at the crazy world of Fitzpatrick. Clients only wanted “gold standard” and the proliferation of pet and equine insurance made it all possible. Vets are now worried to make a mistake and so tend to refer more readily if finance allows. The scene was then set where the insurance companies made a good profit as the vet sector prices were low and corporate practice really started to take hold. Turnover became vital and targets were set and needed to be met. In return the corporates invested heavily in equipment and staff. For example clients are now expecting their animals to be attended 24 hours a day and guess what, that costs the practices big time as lone working regs mean that two members of staff are on site and awake at all times - probably £80k per year. Then COVID hits followed by the credit crunch. Pet insurance has become less shiny to the insurance companies as the practices are now charging more and have eliminated cross subsidisation so premiums rise and cover diminishes. Footfall into practices decreases so the managers (who are no longer vets in many cases) decide to hike the prices so they meet their turnover targets and embrace shrinkflation if they can! Spot the vicious circle!! The corporates pursue their management heavy style and don’t value the staff at ground level yet waste money in other areas. The bubble is really set to burst! Now insurance is unaffordable for many folks and the tipping point may have been reached. It needs to level out somehow. What I would ask that you remember is that the vets and nurses that you see are almost certainly not in control of the fees. They will probably find the costs embarrassingly high as well but there is little they can do to change it and equally need to keep their jobs and pay their mortgage at the end of the month just like everyone else. It is a bad situation for sure and it makes me despair for the profession that was previously held in very high regard.
Apologies for the incomplete ramble but it isn’t an easy situation to see a way out of.

That does not water down the mistakes highlighted in just a few of the above posts where beloved pets are turned into profit, my traumatic experience was 3.5k because the young vet prescribed anti inflammatory instead of antibiotics.
Today I am driving an hour with 5 spaniel pups for tail docking as the local big practice manager in a very rural area awash with shooting dogs said "we have stopped that procedure" The vets is 5mins drive but now an 2hr trip!

 

[Klenchblaize]

Can't get my head around paying to have one's dog put down when most stalkers own a .22LR.

K

 

[Jon P]

A number of years ago I took a GWP to the vet which had broken it back leg- first thing the vet asked is - is the dog insured- as it was going to cost £1800 - ( this was a long time ago ) - told vet not insured and I will take her home and take her for a short walk in to wood at home- vet treated dog in the end- cost around £350- more recently friend needed meds for his horse- vets admitted to friend drugs are more expensive if insurance paying as they have to wait a few weeks for payment- NFU were insurance company who will pay out in 10 days. Friend only gets £5000 max payout on vet fees- this will impact on how much treatment the horse will receive.

Yes vets have high overheads with mobile x ray machines etc - but lots just push it to far. What’s the old saying - you never see a poor vet.

 

[Buchan]

Yes but you didn't have to pay £40 consultation fee to see the menu

OK, that's witty!

 

[Tim.243]

OK, that's witty!

My SA Dentist has looked after my teeth for 27 years via NHS I asked him what is the difference in materials etc
None just the Private patient pays more...

 

[Buchan]

beloved pets are turned into profit,

Forgive me for taking your quote, but it does rather sum up part of the problem and one I have heard since I graduate over 40 years ago. There is an element of the public that does think vets should do work for the love of the job, to save pets. Plus with the NHS few people have any idea of the real cost of medical intervention.
As Soleus says, for many years we ran a subsidised service for a community (one I enjoyed doing) we kept fees (especially our of hours) ridiculously low with drug mark up and ministry work. It worked for the most part. Then the ministry work went, then we got hammered on the drugs by the Competition Commission - see post 2. But even then people tried it on. "We can't afford a caesarian" with pups selling for the cost of the caesar each.
We have all become more efficient businesses and paid staff better. As I said, I don't like the corporate approach, but it's the real world and I suspect they make their cut with big discounts rather than the actual fees.
Poor vet - I've done OK, but in my third year of trading I made about £6k as a sole trader. I took no pension provision for my first 10 years in practice.

 

[Tim.243]

Forgive me for taking your quote, but it does rather sum up part of the problem and one I have heard since I graduate over 40 years ago. There is an element of the public that does think vets should do work for the love of the job, to save pets. Plus with the NHS few people have any idea of the real cost of medical intervention.
As Soleus says, for many years we ran a subsidised service for a community (one I enjoyed doing) we kept fees (especially our of hours) ridiculously low with drug mark up and ministry work. It worked for the most part. Then the ministry work went, then we got hammered on the drugs by the Competition Commission - see post 2. But even then people tried it on. "We can't afford a caesarian" with pups selling for the cost of the caesar each.
We have all become more efficient businesses and paid staff better. As I said, I don't like the corporate approach, but it's the real world and I suspect they make their cut with big discounts rather than the actual fees.
Poor vet - I've done OK, but in my third year of trading I made about £6k as a sole trader. I took no pension provision for my first 10 years in practice.

Forgive me for cherry picking my own quote...

Vet gave Chip anti infantry's instead of antibiotics the raging infection nearly killed him....3.5K 2 general's later to sew his face back together, 6weeks later after I was hand feeding him food and water from a syringe getting up every 3 hrs I got my beloved dog back to close to normal
Ask @paul o' as he saw him at the emergency vets because I was to ****ed up to find the place so he came and parked his truck and lead me to the vets... No sorry Tim can we reimburse you for our mistake not ****ing lightly.

Today I am driving an hour with 5 spaniel pups for tail docking as the local big practice manager in a very rural area awash with shooting dogs said "we have stopped that procedure" The vets is 5mins drive but now an 2hr trip!

 

[shakey jake]

how many of the people that cant afford vet fees can afford starbucks coffees, gym membership fags, booze, on demand tv, holidays each year?
consideting the rapid response vets give, no body waits 6 months to see a vet. i have no prob with the fees

 

[Tim.243]

how many of the people that cant afford vet fees can afford starbucks coffees, gym membership fags, booze, on demand tv, holidays each year?
consideting the rapid response vets give, no body waits 6 months to see a vet. i have no prob with the fees

Not had a holiday in 13 years don't drink or smoke (just plain stupid) or use star bucks or the gym as working for my self stalking etc seems to be enough.
Using a vet at 1pm for tail docking working spaniels as they need to be done in 3 days.

 

[ion]

It probably wouldn't happen now. Twenty years ago I knew of a vet whose practice was for sale with 40% of accounts unpaid. Think he was a sole practitioner which wasn't unusual at the time. He was in demand as a good horse vet.
My own local practice has gone from three cattle vets, one of whom was excellent with dogs, to two surgeries, one is small animal only. Operations two days a week even in the mixed practice surgery.
Their prices have gone up accordingly, but still compare well with urban practices.
I have to admit a bias as one of the vets persuaded me to stick with the treatment of an ESS diagnosed with hemolytic anemia. 18 months later she is coming up to her 11th birthday, and remains my stalking companion. Beating is half days only owing to hip dysplasia .
Funny thing is, what I object to most is the fact that in the old days the bills were quite generously rounded off. Now you pay every last cent!

 

[NullMac]

a) its not a bubble. High prices are here to stay because people are paying them. Pick your vet carefully.

b) the "annual health review" is an inspection to see what they can charge you for. "Passionate about small animal surgery" means they are looking for surgical solutions to everything.

c) insurance means the owner does not directly feel the costs at the time of treatment but the rest of us do

d) humans are starting to treat their pets as humans and are paying for late in life interventions that are both expensive and ultimately pointless. IMO cruel but thats only my view.

 

[VSS]

I've just this minute paid my vets bill
Pregnancy testing cows:
£3.50 each
It breaks my heart!

 

[User00047]

My neighbours dog eat a sock went for to op,s to remove it vet spilled stomach content in animal sepsis dog dead bill £4400 for a dead dog

had read 15 times understand couldn’t was to difficult