CMA Inquiry into Vet Fees announced

The vet that I use is the old fashion country type and was recommended by an old shooting friend many years ago. I was looking to get a litter of terrier pup vaccinated and my usual vets wanted stupid money I told them no thank you and put the phone down. A rang the friend above and he gave me the number when I rang them I had to ask them three times if the price they quoted me was right as it was a quarter of what I had been quoted by my normal vets. This vets is 14 miles away from where I live but I was happy to travel for the price I had been quoted. When I got to this vets I couldn't believe how many people from where I live were sat in the waiting room.I have been using this vets ever since probably 30 years.
 
I have though and found a final walk in the woods with my freind and a 22LR to be a far kinder approach to such a heart-breaking undertaking than queuing in a Vet's Waiting Room with a trembling and confused dog at heel.

I get such an approach is not for everyone but I took some comfort from having found the strength to undertake the deed.

K
You must really have a crap vet then
 
Quite right. It's not even illegal to bury a human in your garden.
Just going out to get a shovel, should just have time to dig the hole before the wife gets back from work. 😂😂😂

As for vets, they do have lots of overheads to pay for but more transparency in pricing like a price list would be helpful and I think pet insurance has helped push up prices as they know most take out such insurance.
 
I bring all my dogs back from the vets and Bury them in my garden. I think if it was illegal the vet would tell you.
Sorry, you’re right. If near waterways and bigger than a domestic dog or living in rented accommodation it’s not allowed, but regular small pets in owned property they lived in (not a friends house for example), and not in an area that can contaminate, is ok
 
I think we're likely to see an increase in mobile one-man-band vets. They'll have a vehicle kitted out for all routine stuff, and will work in conjunction with a referral practice for anything more complicated. Without the cost of a bricks-and-mortar practice and staff they'll be able to keep costs down, and being mobile will make them very welcome in areas with a high population of elderly folk who find it hard to get out to visit a vet.
Although I envisage this being primarily a small animal service, there are already equine specialists operating in this way.
I know of small animal vets who, disillusioned with the current system, are setting up in business in this way, or are seriously considering doing so.
 
Vet gave Chip anti infantry's instead of antibiotics the raging infection nearly killed him....3.5K 2 general's later to sew his face back together, 6weeks later after I was hand feeding him food and water from a syringe getting up every 3 hrs I got my beloved dog back to close to normal
Ask @paul o' as he saw him at the emergency vets because I was to ****ed up to find the place so he came and parked his truck and lead me to the vets... No sorry Tim can we reimburse you for our mistake not ****ing lightly.
To be fair to what was my local vet before it closed, they spayed my shepherd and the vet who did it, rushed the job. He didn't tie something off correctly so maybe 3 days later she looked/walked like a deer that was bleeding out... Straight back, then to the emergency vets for what was a substantial operation with blood transfusions.

Original vet said they will pay for absolutely everything and follow up blood tests until she's right which they kept their word and did. If I remember correctly, it was over 4k!

My pup ate a sock last year and I was charged 3.5k or something similar for the privilege 🤦
 
With the popularity of cross-breeds, have they got more immunity than pure-breds?
I always understood that mongrels were healthier than pedigree dogs.
 
More than a few. It’s their business model .
Make money and increase that money year on year.
Anyone not fulfilling that goal is subject to pressure to make more money.
 
I think we're likely to see an increase in mobile one-man-band vets. They'll have a vehicle kitted out for all routine stuff, and will work in conjunction with a referral practice for anything more complicated. Without the cost of a bricks-and-mortar practice and staff they'll be able to keep costs down, and being mobile will make them very welcome in areas with a high population of elderly folk who find it hard to get out to visit a vet.
Although I envisage this being primarily a small animal service, there are already equine specialists operating in this way.
I know of small animal vets who, disillusioned with the current system, are setting up in business in this way, or are seriously considering doing so.
An interesting concept, but one I think is in the main fundamentally difficult to see succeeding in the global picture.
Some of my reasons based on experience are as follows:-

1) The very significant difference in mind set between a SA vet and an Eq/ LA vet. The SA vet is unused to having to adapt to “environmental” conditions / variabilities - although COVID improved this! But there is already a “dropping back” with the younger cohort coming through that were not exposed to those challenges in the clinical sense. Your average SA vet wants all the facilities available to undertake their job.

2) Surgical facilities will be very challenging to provide, the vast majority of SA procedures are carried out under General Anaesthesia, and the provision of this under mobile conditions would be difficult, particularly when considering non routine ops, even dentals due to the kit involved would be problematic.
Due to anatomy, eg the “stay apparatus” which enables a horse to stand whilst “sleeping”, and the advancement of sedation / surgical techniques the number of operations that are carried out on the equine species under standing techniques is significant. This has also been driven by the cost of GAs in horses, and the significant risk of complications both during induction, maintenance and post anaesthesia.
Similarly for the LA vet the use of Local anaesthesia techniques, handling facilities and very different mindset of both client and vet mean that relatively few ops are performed under GA.

3) Ultimately the services that a mobile unit are going to be able to provide are going to be limited in comparison to the norm SA practice, and clients want a one stop shop. How often have you been frustrated by going to see your GP, and then not even the basic procedure of taking blood being able to be facilitated by that GP??

4) The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) themselves. By this I mean the legislation / professional conduct requirements that they set that veterinary surgeons have to abide by. Although ironically the CMA investigation will potentially enable change of some of the outdated and unworkable legislation that is currently in existence, and this is actually welcomed by the vast majority of vets that are aware of these “failures”.
What do I mean by RCVS requirements precluding easy provision of such widespead mobile services?
For example - a veterinary surgeon or business who provides a service even a simple vaccine is legally obliged to ensure that there is emergency cover for a period of 48-72 hours after the event. Something that often these pop up bargain vaccine clinics often do not actually have, and clients taking up this vaccine service are unaware that should be available to them.
How are these mobile one man band services going to provide this? Remember point 1) above - mindset difference - the vast majority of SA vets do not wish or expect to provide an Out of Hours service - that boat has already sailed believe you me!!
2nd example - there is such a thing called a Practice Standards Scheme that currently is voluntary - unless you are a Veterinary Hospital where it is compulsory. This scheme WILL. become compulsory for all “practices”, and this may preclude the mobile truly service providing SA vet - simply because of the kit and administration requirements that they will be “forced” to ensure they can provide.

5) Cost of consultation - by this I mean with an Equine or LA vet if they are “ billing” 4 hours out of 8 then they from a business sense are doing well - an ultimately a veterinary practice has to be a business to survive.
Hence in terms of Eq or LA practice you have a visit fee and then either a consultation fee or minimum time charge. So to actually get my horse seen / examined it will cost me x+y - and this does not include treatment costs, and ultimately x+y will be more than your average walk in SA consult.
If you are about to suggest that they will operate from a designated site then this will attract licence fees / rent etc which implies increased costs.

6) You mention referral centres taking up the more complicated procedures, or those that cannot be done out on the road. A lot of the media hype has actually been driven by the charges that these referral centres are charging - rightly or wrongly, and that is a whole different conversation.
These charges have ultimately been driven by the wish of both veterinary individual and the client to offer the very best service to the animal, and this comes at an obvious cost.
Yes, a vet can and should offer a more cost conscious option or tailored to clients expectations, but this will come at the understanding by the client that things may not “go to plan” and therefore there is an inherent risk of either further treatment and, from a worsening clinical picture, or even the consideration that the animal will need to be put down.
Now society’s attitude has changed in the last 20 years, - everyone is entitled to everything, ownership does not with responsibility, and it is always somebody else’s fault.
And this increase in risk of something not going to plan is something that an ever increasing number of the public are not “able” to accept.
Never mind Lord forbid, discussing with the client that really due to animal status and indeed client financial capabilities the animal should be put down. “How dare you suggest I should put Fido down, I am going to report you!”
Remember that to most owners these animals are a member of the family- indeed despite the subject matter and tone of this thread numerous contributors have said they could not put their own dog down.

7) These “referral” centres will not necessarily be what we know as your typical referral centres today, but much like ourselves a very high standard first opinion practice with additional referral services attached.
Indeed, we have seen these mobile services pop up from time to time and indeed have “supported” them with the very arrangements you have suggested, even providing the OOHs emergency service back up while they simply operate during the comfortable hours of 9am - 5pm; and each one of these mobile services have fizzled out after a couple of years due to a variety of reasons such as client dissatisfaction with the mobile service, economic viability of the mobile business, and indeed the mobile vet’s expectations of service provision.

8) Those practices providing this additional back up, will also obviously lose some of the bread and butter work that financially supports some of the less productive or indeed financially loss making aspects of the business. If this reaches a critical mass then, those services will be scaled back or indeed a financial levy placed on the mobile business which in turn will be passed on to the mobile vet’s clients.

And by loss making I will give you an example from ourselves- the OOHs.
We are the only practice in a very wide area that provides our clients with this service, and as mentioned we lose money on it and have extreme difficulty in recruitment and retention, because we require our clinical teams to work provide this cover; and that is despite time off in lieu the next day, and or before the night duty, and additional payment for undertaking the duty on top of their hourly rate.
It is a service that we feel passionate in providing for the benefit of our clients, and something we are now gratefully seeing on some of the usual social media bashing threads where there is a thread about our “costs” and then the replies that yes they they are not cheap but ……… provides their own OOHs services for which I as a client of theirs am grateful for.
Recognition of this type by even a few clients makes an unbelievable difference to our teams in this day and age of often unwarranted and at times downright lies that are peddled on some these different social media site threads where the posters simply do not have to take account of their words.

This service is something we have fought tooth and nail to provide over the last 2-3 years post COVID and at a massive cost both financially and in human terms. If we stopped our OOHs I can guarantee our recruitment and retention difficulties would be solved overnight!

So with these difficulties why should practices such as ours just pick up the “difficult” end of the stick??

And in the case of our clinical teams I will publicly thank them here and now for their loyalty and dedication to our clients.


All of the above are just a few of the difficulties in provision of a good service to the client by such mobile services. Ultimately it comes down to the expectations of service by todays clients and the expectations of the “modern” clinician.

So as an old fashioned duty bound vet, that has spent enough time with this, I am now going out in the garden.
If you have read all of this thank you and I apologise for any typos - fat fingers and IPad syndrome!
ATB,
HL
 
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More than a few. It’s their business model .
Make money and increase that money year on year.
Anyone not fulfilling that goal is subject to pressure to make more money.

Interestingly the last two lines of your comment are surely not the ethos of ANY business - self-employed, private equity, shareholder owned, or partnership?? As this in turn allows future development and investment at whatever level?

I will add that every business should have in their business mantra - increased client service - or at least that is something most vets have despite contrary opinion.

Definitely now off to the garden!
 
Interestingly the last two lines of your comment are surely not the ethos of ANY business - self-employed, private equity, shareholder owned, or partnership?? As this in turn allows future development and investment at whatever level?

I will add that every business should have in their business mantra - increased client service - or at least that is something most vets have despite contrary opinion.

Definitely now off to the garden!
Look at the likes of the Water Companies. Their ethos has been to make more money each year. That's it.

No investment in infrastructure or a better service, just bleed customers dry and move on once there is no more money. Plenty of businesses operate this way especially if owned or bought out by a bigger company (like many vets) because there is no goal other than making money, be it through selling off assets, short selling stock, putting up prices and taking over competition etc.
 
An interesting concept, but one I think is in the main fundamentally difficult to see succeeding in the global picture.
Some of my reasons based on experience are as follows:-

1) The very significant difference in mind set between a SA vet and an Eq/ LA vet. The SA vet is unused to having to adapt to “environmental” conditions / variabilities - although COVID improved this! But there is already a “dropping back” with the younger cohort coming through that were not exposed to those challenges in the clinical sense. Your average SA vet wants all the facilities available to undertake their job.

2) Surgical facilities will be very challenging to provide, the vast majority of SA procedures are carried out under General Anaesthesia, and the provision of this under mobile conditions would be difficult, particularly when considering non routine ops, even dentals due to the kit involved would be problematic.
Due to anatomy, eg the “stay apparatus” which enables a horse to stand whilst “sleeping”, and the advancement of sedation / surgical techniques the number of operations that are carried out on the equine species under standing techniques is significant. This has also been driven by the cost of GAs in horses, and the significant risk of complications both during induction, maintenance and post anaesthesia.
Similarly for the LA vet the use of Local anaesthesia techniques, handling facilities and very different mindset of both client and vet mean that relatively few ops are performed under GA.

3) Ultimately the services that a mobile unit are going to be able to provide are going to be limited in comparison to the norm SA practice, and clients want a one stop shop. How often have you been frustrated by going to see your GP, and then not even the basic procedure of taking blood being able to be facilitated by that GP??

4) The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) themselves. By this I mean the legislation / professional conduct requirements that they set that veterinary surgeons have to abide by. Although ironically the CMA investigation will potentially enable change of some of the outdated and unworkable legislation that is currently in existence, and this is actually welcomed by the vast majority of vets that are aware of these “failures”.
What do I mean by RCVS requirements precluding easy provision of such widespead mobile services?
For example - a veterinary surgeon or business who provides a service even a simple vaccine is legally obliged to ensure that there is emergency cover for a period of 48-72 hours after the event. Something that often these pop up bargain vaccine clinics often do not actually have, and clients taking up this vaccine service are unaware that should be available to them.
How are these mobile one man band services going to provide this? Remember point 1) above - mindset difference - the vast majority of SA vets do not wish or expect to provide an Out of Hours service - that boat has already sailed believe you me!!
2nd example - there is such a thing called a Practice Standards Scheme that currently is voluntary - unless you are a Veterinary Hospital where it is compulsory. This scheme WILL. become compulsory for all “practices”, and this may preclude the mobile truly service providing SA vet - simply because of the kit and administration requirements that they will be “forced” to ensure they can provide.

5) Cost of consultation - by this I mean with an Equine or LA vet if they are “ billing” 4 hours out of 8 then they from a business sense are doing well - an ultimately a veterinary practice has to be a business to survive.
Hence in terms of Eq or LA practice you have a visit fee and then either a consultation fee or minimum time charge. So to actually get my horse seen / examined it will cost me x+y - and this does not include treatment costs, and ultimately x+y will be more than your average walk in SA consult.
If you are about to suggest that they will operate from a designated site then this will attract licence fees / rent etc which implies increased costs.

6) You mention referral centres taking up the more complicated procedures, or those that cannot be done out on the road. A lot of the media hype has actually been driven by the charges that these referral centres are charging - rightly or wrongly, and that is a whole different conversation.
These charges have ultimately been driven by the wish of both veterinary individual and the client to offer the very best service to the animal, and this comes at an obvious cost.
Yes, a vet can and should offer a more cost conscious option or tailored to clients expectations, but this will come at the understanding by the client that things may not “go to plan” and therefore there is an inherent risk of either further treatment and, from a worsening clinical picture, or even the consideration that the animal will need to be put down.
Now society’s attitude has changed in the last 20 years, - everyone is entitled to everything, ownership does not with responsibility, and it is always somebody else’s fault.
And this increase in risk of something not going to plan is something that an ever increasing number of the public are not “able” to accept.
Never mind Lord forbid, discussing with the client that really due to animal status and indeed client financial capabilities the animal should be put down. “How dare you suggest I should put Fido down, I am going to report you!”
Remember that to most owners these animals are a member of the family- indeed despite the subject matter and tone of this thread numerous contributors have said they could not put their own dog down.

7) These “referral” centres will not necessarily be what we know as your typical referral centres today, but much like ourselves a very high standard first opinion practice with additional referral services attached.
Indeed, we have seen these mobile services pop up from time to time and indeed have “supported” them with the very arrangements you have suggested, even providing the OOHs emergency service back up while they simply operate during the comfortable hours of 9am - 5pm; and each one of these mobile services have fizzled out after a couple of years due to a variety of reasons such as client dissatisfaction with the mobile service, economic viability of the mobile business, and indeed the mobile vet’s expectations of service provision.

8) Those practices providing this additional back up, will also obviously lose some of the bread and butter work that financially supports some of the less productive or indeed financially loss making aspects of the business. If this reaches a critical mass then, those services will be scaled back or indeed a financial levy placed on the mobile business which in turn will be passed on to the mobile vet’s clients.

And by loss making I will give you an example from ourselves- the OOHs.
We are the only practice in a very wide area that provides our clients with this service, and as mentioned we lose money on it and have extreme difficulty in recruitment and retention, because we require our clinical teams to work provide this cover; and that is despite time off in lieu the next day, and or before the night duty, and additional payment for undertaking the duty on top of their hourly rate.
It is a service that we feel passionate in providing for the benefit of our clients, and something we are now gratefully seeing on some of the usual social media bashing threads where there is a thread about our “costs” and then the replies that yes they they are not cheap but ……… provides their own OOHs services for which I as a client of theirs am grateful for.
Recognition of this type by even a few clients makes an unbelievable difference to our teams in this day and age of often unwarranted and at times downright lies that are peddled on some these different social media site threads where the posters simply do not have to take account of their words.

This service is something we have fought tooth and nail to provide over the last 2-3 years post COVID and at a massive cost both financially and in human terms. If we stopped our OOHs I can guarantee our recruitment and retention difficulties would be solved overnight!

So with these difficulties why should practices such as ours just pick up the “difficult” end of the stick??

And in the case of our clinical teams I will publicly thank them here and now for their loyalty and dedication to our clients.


All of the above are just a few of the difficulties in provision of a good service to the client by such mobile services. Ultimately it comes down to the expectations of service by todays clients and the expectations of the “modern” clinician.

So as an old fashioned duty bound vet, that has spent enough time with this, I am now going out in the garden.
If you have read all of this thank you and I apologise for any typos - fat fingers and IPad syndrome!
ATB,
HL
Interesting points.
I have a few vets in my family, so I'm getting these debates quite regularly.
 
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