Gun ownership in Norway and Britain.

[dogone]

Reddish is correct. If it is so dangerous why do so many people visit. There are more than a million Canadians who winter in Florida and Arizona. Both gun freindly states. There are 700,000 people licences to conceal carry in Arizona and likely as many in Florida. At least 30 of my neighbours just returned from Arizona. Not one mention of danger.
I have spent a total of years there. I only saw a gun on a cop or when I went to a range. Don’t believe the all the bs about trigger happy Americans.

 

[KimE]

Voluntary uptake of training is very high among newcomers to shooting (stalking in particular), so I don't think we need compulsory hunter's education. Self-regulation is better than having it imposed upon us, imo.

The hunting examina takes away the strange things UK hunters have to do to get a hunting rifle. The policeman/woman only have to check if you have an examina and have followed the law then you get your licence for life. No control of hunting ground, No need to know an old deer stalker to learn from. No DSC1.

As strange rules for Sweden, if you use a semiautorifle you need to know if its a continental hare or a mountain hare, for continental hare you can use a 5 round mag but if the hare can get white in the winter only 1+2 rounds are allowed.

 

[Stalker62]

Voluntary uptake of training is very high among newcomers to shooting (stalking in particular), so I don't think we need compulsory hunter's education.

Where is the data for this assertion?

 

[KimE]

Counting ammo is a once-in-five years exercise, carried out in haste about 10 minutes before the FEO is due to ring the doorbell

No FEO has ever rung my door bell as a firearm owner folloing the law no Police need to visit me. The Police have a register for suspected and convicted criminals if you dont show up there no Police need to harass you. The only time a Policeman have made a visit was for spending some time in the sauna and drinking whisky.

 

[KimE]

I have no issue with the suggestion of mandatory hunter training. There is such a requirement in many other walks of life, both recreational and in work / professional. With a set standard, then there is a clear standard that individuals need to meet.

There is no reason why it shouldn’t be set and certified by hunters own organisations. Such as practice is very well understood. For centuries, guilds have been granted the right to set standards for individuals to meet before they can become a member of the guild to practice their trade. Professions have very similar with candidates having to meet and demonstrate levels of competence before they can practice.

If you want to operate any form of machinery in a commercial manner you now need a qualification whether its a forklift or a chainsaw.

In recreation, if you want to fly a glider you need to go through British Gliding Assoc approved training course, similar for diving and many other passtimes.

In target shooting under approved rifle clubs there a syllabus that probationary club members should follow before they can become full members and the club chairman can sign them off to get an FAC.

Most deer stalkers do end up doing DSC1. For game shooting it is somewhat hit and miss. There are courses but……

At very least any body coming into shooting and using a gun should at a minimum be educated in

1) Gun safety and what a projectile coming out of the end of a gun can do. (I frequently hear that 22rimfire and 410s are not dangerous)

2) Basic understanding of law as applied to firearms

3) Quarry identification and seasons. Again I am constantly amazed at how many guns don’t the difference between a mallard and other duck species nor can they tell you which you can shoot.

4) a basic understanding of the ethics and traditions of all forms of shooting.

5) and sufficient competence to select an appropriate quarry, make a safe and clean kill, minimising any suffering. And then what needs to happen to take the carcass into the human food chain.

There is also a huge gap between a good education and simply knowing the answers to pass a tick box test.

The Swedish hunting association are holding courses and examina. My hunting education and examina were made in high school at age 13-15 some of the teachers were educating as a free choise an hour of the week. All your 5 point are covered by the examina.

 

[cjm1066]

As others have noted there is little consistency in what's banned or not between countries, that at least offers opportunities for research and evaluation.

We are close via administrative means of making DMQ1 compulsory for deer stalking. Yet the same 22" center fire is OK for fox shooting with no training. That shows:

How alas the shooting communities training provision is used by the authorities.

How the safety considerations of a 22" C/F vary according to the quarry. Of course this is only in the bureaucratic mind, and studies of ballistics would show this hypothesis has no merit, unless you apply for 22"C/F for pheasants.

 

[AlexD]

Where is the data for this assertion?

Do you know anyone who has got a new FAC in the past few years, without paperwork showing they have gun safety training? Or without being a member of a gun club?

Fortunately BSAC, NRA etc, have recognised the problem and created exam only courses for people with evidence they have done a lot of shooting, e.g. overseas or in Armed Forces, but don't have UK paperwork. Paperwork seems to be essential for a FAC now.

Getting ALQ on a deer calibre rifle, without DSC1 seems rare, unless the FEO is particularly lenient.

If the applicant is a member of a club, then there are other responsible people who will report bad behaviour, effectively monitoring the gun owner. This is why they want to speak with people you have shot with, to find out how responsible you are.

The guidance to FEOs is really the regulator. The Home Office write and amend that guidance as they wish. They are already looking for paperwork from applicants. No need to do anything that creates more paperwork, as the list they need already covers it: they are not going to loosen up the other requirements just because someone passed an exam.

It is all a matter of FEOs and Chief Supers covering their backs. If someone has had gun safety training, then they are less likely to try and shoot a bird in a tree using a rifle, shoot deer out of season, or do other things that are unlawful or a danger to others.

Having some paperwork seems a real pain, but if you think it is a bad thing, go shooting in France with the locals and listen to the stories or see what happens.

 

[VSS]

The hunting examina takes away the strange things UK hunters have to do to get a hunting rifle. The policeman/woman only have to check if you have an examina and have followed the law then you get your licence for life. No control of hunting ground, No need to know an old deer stalker to learn from. No DSC1.

If such a thing were to be introduced in the UK you can guarantee it would be in addition to our existing requirements, not instead of. That's just the way things are done here. Our government cheerfully adds more restrictions, but rarely removes outdated ones. On the rare occasions that rules are removed (eg, Scottish male deer seasons) people complain about it!
Brits just love rules and regulations.

 

[Diabolical]

Mandatory hunting qualifications in England will come in by stealth! I had thirty years of FAC history for target shooting when I applied for another .308 for deer stalking and what would be a closed condition for shooting on my own woodland already passed by Thames Valley Police for up to .308 by the previous owner. My variation application was sent back to me by my FEO after a telephone conversation. I had to demonstrate and have documented outings with experienced stalkers, and pass the DSC1. I had already planned to do these actions, but after I had my rifle. Using the 'public safety is of paramount importance' stance these actions became a prerequisite for my variation. I have heard that other forces also do this. In essence, I didn't mind and it did make sense. It delayed things by only four months. However, nowhere is it written down that this is a legal requirement......

 

[Robinson]

Counting ammo is a once-in-five years exercise, carried out in haste about 10 minutes before the FEO is due to ring the doorbell

This made me curious . Counting ammo?? Does the authorities really concern themselves with how many cartridges you have in your house? And they come home to you? In all my years of hunting and shooting I have never had anyone demanding to check on my guns and ammo. And I have never heard of anyone who experienced that either. The fire regulations though might have a say as how much ammunition that can be stored in a house, before you must store them in firesafe cabinets or rooms.

 

[VSS]

This made me curious . Counting ammo?? Does the authorities really concern themselves with how many cartridges you have in your house? And they come home to you? In all my years of hunting and shooting I have never had anyone demanding to check on my guns and ammo. And I have never heard of anyone who experienced that either. The fire regulations though might have a say as how much ammunition that can be stored in a house, before you must store them in firesafe cabinets or rooms.

Yes, they do concern themselves with how much ammo we have.
When we renew our license at 5 yearly intervals it is quite likely that we'll have a security check, and that may involve checking that we have not exceeded our storage allowance for ammo.
They also may ask for evidence that we're actually using ammo. This may be in the form of regular purchases listed on our FAC, or receipts for reloading components. If we're not using much ammo they'll argue that we have no reason to keep that firearm anymore, and may withdraw our authority.

(This only applies to section 1 ammunition, not shotgun cartridges. We can have as many shotgun cartridges as we like).

 

[KimE]

We are allowed to store ammunition with a powder weight up to 20kg in our houses( in a locked space)- its like 7000 .308w or 13000 12g. Max of 5kg of powder in a metal cabinet.

 

[VSS]

We are allowed to store ammunition with a powder weight up to 20kg in our houses( in a locked space)- its like 7000 .308w or 13000 12g. Max of 5kg of powder in a metal cabinet.

I thought powder in a metal cabinet was a bad idea? Should be in a wooden box or cabinet, shouldn't it? Or have I got that wrong?
(I'm not a reloaded, so may be mistaken).

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I thought powder in a metal cabinet was a bad idea? Should be in a wooden box or cabinet, shouldn't it? Or have I got that wrong?
(I'm not a reloaded, so may be mistaken).

German state insist on a steel cabinet lockable for powder too, a blooming stupid regulation IMO.

 

[Jagare]

No FEO has ever rung my door bell as a firearm owner folloing the law no Police need to visit me. The Police have a register for suspected and convicted criminals if you dont show up there no Police need to harass you. The only time a Policeman have made a visit was for spending some time in the sauna and drinking whisky.

When I owned my forest property I sW a policeman only once. He was on his motorbike, out looking for a elderly gentleman with Dementia who had disappeared. I gave away a rifle and bought a new shotgun for the first time in twenty year a nice police lady rang me from Umeå to ask why I needed six hunting weapons. I've had six weapons since I moved to Sweden 21 years ago.

 

[KimE]

I thought powder in a metal cabinet was a bad idea? Should be in a wooden box or cabinet, shouldn't it? Or have I got that wrong?
(I'm not a reloaded, so may be mistaken).

Yes it might be better if it were wood cabinet but Police consider powder to be attractive to theives.

A member of my shooting club made a controled test for the government(MSB) with a kilo of blackpowder in a guncabinet with fire for one hour under it, they found it smoked a lot and cooked up it did not blow up at all.

 

[Basil H]

As I recall, when I first got a black powder ticket many years ago there was no storage stipulation but there was a recommendation for a "japanned metal container" or something similar. Anyone know ?

 

[Jagare]

When I moved house 10 months ago I informed the tax authorities of my change of address and everything official was handled by them. No need to inform the police, no checking of security or new bits of ground or any of the other bullsh1t you have to endure in the UK.

 

[Robinson]

The last time I applied for a permit, I did it online and got it approved online two weeks later. No one asked me anything. I had to write down the make, model and serial no of the gun cabinet though. That's all. This British renewal thing sounds draconic to me, and counting ammo? I would not know where to start. There is no indication that our regime for gun purchases will change for the worst for us in the near future.

 

[KimE]

As I recall, when I first got a black powder ticket many years ago there was no storage stipulation but there was a recommendation for a "japanned metal container" or something similar. Anyone know ?

For blackpowder I have a paper box with small tubes inside so I can repackage 1kg in to 100g tubes with a lot of room for expansion inside the paperbox, it takes blackpowder from class 1,1 explosive down to 1,4 so it can be stored and transported in the same way as smokeless powder.