Should police land checks be scrapped?

[Tim.243]

I'm not sure that I agree restricting target shooters to specific ranges or even ranges is warranted at all. There's no more issue with a target shooter using an informal range on land they own or have use of, so long as it's safe, than there is any sporting or land management shooter. If it's safe, it's safe. Why should it be OK for a sports shooter with only two firearms in their ticket to practice on land they seem suitable, but a target Shooters with a dozen rifles cannot make the same call and can only use a club range or the like? We really do not need to encourage the creation of different classes if FAC holder. We need closer knit shooting communities and more cohesion, not more divisions.

I would say starting at the FAC application then at a guess most target rifles are not conditioned the same as a sporting or land management shooter, yet with .240 + you can shoot any of the UK deer species.
With a dedicated range the backstop dog walker off the footpath is (should be) taken care of, also fields are where contractors work, power people are a good example as they will have a need to check something,
This time of year the Duke of Edinburgh Award walkers pop out from nowhere as they get lost (a lot)
You don't get that with a range

From a field of view point I shoot off sticks when checking (zeroing) my centre fire rifles as that is 95% of the usage,

An example in 2014 while doing my DSC1 shooting test I said that I would be shooting the whole test off my sticks with the others shooting prone (target shooting) off a truck flat bed, @paul o' as he was there, my upright position gave me a much better overview of the area. Then 2-3 people turned left off a foot path and were heading to the target area not seen by the prone shooters as their flat field of view was restricted. I started shouting as loud as I could to "stop shooting" which they did, also the "FC Ranger " sent to "look after Tim" missed seeing them.

I could give you a number of examples but think it will fall on deaf ears with a prone blinkered point of view.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Total waste of time

Your talking about people who wanted written ( separate) permission to use thermal !!

Land being passed makes no issue whatsoever, it’s the trigger pullers final decision to shoot that makes a shot safe or not
I’ve quite happily shot a .243 in a back garden, quite safely as well. I imaging some feo’s would faint at the thought.

Thank god for the open ticket system up here mind

 

[cjm1066]

The whole industry of writing conditions on certificates is a bureaucratic invention, not required by the legislation. Conditions are intended to be restrictive or place obligation on the FAC holder. The so called open certificate:

The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition (unnecessary, these are already listed on the FAC) shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/ deer (delete as appropriate) and any other lawful quarry (unnecessary Deer Act/Wildlife & Countryside Act determine lawful quarry) , and for zeroing-practice on ranges, over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot (and if you don’t have lawful authority, it’s armed trespass!).

I recently had a Section 7 permit, no additional conditions, I could use the firearms for lawful quarry and or/zeroing on law where I had lawful authority, this includes rifle ranges.

 

[Robinson]

In theory it's not a bad idea. Having someone check that land is safe to shoot on for a new certificate holder that has no, or limited experience.

From where I stand, it is a bad idea in theory too. This theory that no one can be trusted to take care of security them selves, has done nothing good with our societies. What if that hunter sends off a bullet in the wrong direction after all, on this police approved land? When I worked offshore in the oil exploration industry before I retired , every morning when I looked in the mirror of the bathroom in my cabin I saw this little sticker in the lower left corner of the mirror that said : "You are looking at the person responsible for your safety today". And we took it to heart out there. If you own firearms, centerfire, rimfire or smoothbore, and uses them, you are supposed to know the inherent risk of sending a bullet or shotgun load on its way. This includes of course knowing what it takes to stop a bullet and what safe back ground means. Interesting enough, most of the shooting accidents here in Norway happens with shotguns. Where background aren't regarded to be of great importance, unless of course humans are the background. When bicycle helmets were introduced, I thought it a great idea. I put them on my kids, because after all, even if I didn't use them when I was a kid, now the traffic is heavier and my kids didn't ride on gravel roads and met grass and dirt if they went off the road. Hard concrete and asphalt everywhere. But now I see parents putting bicycle helmets on kids that dont ride bicycles. "I dont want you to hurt yourself in case fall my dear." Its choking. We are not immune against this here in Norway either, but having police check our hunting grounds to assure us that it's safe to discharge a gun there, we are luckily not there yet.

 

[JTO]

No such thing as 'unsafe land', plenty of foxes in London back gardens being shot from bedroom windows.

 

[Twodogs]

Yes land checks should be scrapped, land is not inherently safe or unsafe in this context nor are ranges for that matter.

 

[Robinson]

Some years ago a farmer let me and a friend hunt roe deer on his land. The entire land we had access to was farmed land. And flat as a pool table. No matter where we pointed our gun, there would be a barn or a house, a cow or kid on a bicycle or a farmer on his tractor, in the background. No safe angle to send off a bullet. So we decided quick that there would be no hunting with rifles here. Shotguns only. We didn't even dare to use slugs. Shotguns are allowed on roe deer in Norway, and if you keep the range under 20 meters, shotguns are plenty for roe deer. We never had this discussion with the farmer, I dont think he gave it much thought. He wasn't a hunter. And he certainly didn't told us not to shoot his kids or cows. He took that part for granted. You cant foolproof land no matter how much police checks you implement. There is this thing as personal responsibility.

 

[Andrewslater]

Yeah that’s that, but perhaps we need to more towards more of a European style system where the FAC is a hunting license based on testing, theory and practical. It’s controversial of course! And I see both sides. But for police to come and evaluate your land, and deem it suitable for say a .243, but not a 7x57, is ridiculous quite frankly, as I’m sure you will
agree

So remove a barrier and replace it with more barriers? I have had no problems with the current system of land checks.

 

[finnbear270]

Witnessed plenty of cr*p firearm use in Germany, So a Jagdschein is no free pass.

 

[Irish Bob]

A person can be granted an FAC without any prior experience or training. So the argument would be that the closed certificate and land checks seek to address that.

The counter argument could be that if you do away with land checks and have open certificates from the outset then some type of formal training is required before an FAC is granted.

 

[Dalua]

A person can be granted an FAC without any prior experience or training.

A person cannot be granted an FAC unless the FLD are satisfied that he can possess and use the firearms without putting the public or the peace at risk.
The FLDs currently have a number of means of making reasonable sure that is so, but I can see that territorial restrictions on sporting riflemen have any part in any of them.

I don't understand how you conclude that the removal of territorial conditions from sporting FAC-holders must lead to mandatory formal training before grant of FAC?

 

[NoIDeer]

Will Chief Officer of Police take the blame if you **** up on a closed ticket?

I can see firearms safety training becoming mandatory and money making opportunities for...?

 

[Trickyd66]

Land checks are all well and good, if you can actually get one completed.
I asked for a check on a farm over a year and a half ago (RF only but permission to control Roe if I got a deer legal rifle). Still not heard back, and lost permission to an "open" certificate holder because of it.

When I have spoken to FLD they have said they only opened on renewal (if deemed suitable) so much for pushing for 10 year renewal, or with a written journal detailing all activity over a period of time.

I for one can't be doing with keeping detailed records of all my outings on rabbit / fox etc and why I did or didn't take a shot.

I am tempted to put in for a deer legal rifle to see if I can speed the process?

 

[timbrayford]

Because target shooters with zero field experience will not always know what a safe backstop is, though the same could be said for some field shooters!

Ultimately it comes down to good reason, if you are a target only shooter you must be a member of an approved club. To be approved that club must have access to a suitable range, therefore there is no issue tying that person’s use to that club and to only being shot on a suitable range (not necessarily a names range though as that would make travelling for competition impossible). There is also the question of 3rd party insurance of that range, which is currently required for all target shooting and wouldn’t be in place on an informal range.

If target shooters are confined to range use then there is no reason for them to be out in the countryside with their firearms which means it will also make it easier to catch or prosecute them for using their target rifles for poaching.

Just out of curiosity do you perceive a similar issue with clay pigeon shooters going out game or wood pigeon shooting?

 

[timbrayford]

Will Chief Officer of Police take the blame if you **** up on a closed ticket?

I can see firearms safety training becoming mandatory and money making opportunities for...?

Perhaps all these pettifogging arbitrary restrictions that we have are the price that the shooting community pays for not having formalized safety training?

 

[NoIDeer]

Perhaps all these pettifogging arbitrary restrictions that we have are the price that the shooting community pays for not having formalized safety training?

Maybe formalized safety training is the way forward, I'm guessing other bodies are ahead of the game.

It could do away with land checks and calibre restrictions (within bands) for a start.

Love the use of pettifogging, another new word from SD

 

[Bowland blades]

There is no "safe land" in the UK ! only a safe shot to take or an unsafe shot to take .

 

[Rusty Gate]

Police land checks are a waste of public resources that could be better allocated. If you can be entrusted to be a FAC holder, surely you can be trusted in its application.

It’s not the ongoing experience it’s the newcomers starting off.
Wouldn’t give my daughter a V8 or turbo after a week of passing her test kind of thing

 

[Tim.243]

Just out of curiosity do you perceive a similar issue with clay pigeon shooters going out game or wood pigeon shooting?

Yes as the sterile environment from taking your SG out of the cabernet to the car, rock up sign in eat a burger then take the SG around in a slip, out the slip break the SG walk in cage load SG fire 10 shots ask half way to the other expert where are you missing, then borrow his SG
Repeat for the number of stands. Go home or buy one more round as nothing to do with Rough Shooting what so ever!
I was chatting last night to a ex Champion English Sporting shooter also a very good pigeon shooter who like me brought up rough shooting with a hammer gun (410 then 20) about different times he and I have had clay only shooters in the hide or out rough shooting.
One of mine.
Chap (clay shooter only) comes along on our rough shoot (safe with gun) brief was any birds right to left (crossing) take on or turn around and shoot it going away "nothing coming towards you!" Got that "yes"
Dog flushed a cock bird went up high and was a driven bird, what did he do turn around shot it coming towards him, misses it second barrel miss.
Not long after that Claire rang saying those shots landed on her stables...No experience

Had shooters loading their SG walking towards the cage on charity events as I was scoring so just handed him his card back. Why have you given me my card back?

Why did you load your SG out of the cage? lol

 

[Bowland blades]

It’s not the ongoing experience it’s the newcomers starting off.
Wouldn’t give my daughter a V8 or turbo after a week of passing her test kind of thing

Some of the most dangerous shots i have seen taken are often taken by older so called more experienced shooters . Remember i am saying that as a life long shooting man
Complacency being the bug in the system !