Insurance for an observer taken out on a stalk?

[pob]

Hello chaps

I've been asked by an employee of a conservation organisation to take them out with me stalking. (I'd be delighted to do so)

My plan is not for them to actively participate; no firing the rifle, no handling the rifle or ammunition and no climbing into a high seat. No carcass handling, and no use of knives. No money or gifts will change hands, though I might give them some venison if they bring me luck. Anything else I should consider? (I'll give them a lift in my car to the site, since making them walk on the track behind me might be considered rude.)

Has anybody been over this before?

We often see people on this site arranging to accompany a stalk. Since I'm with BASC, I would be covered as the observer, but what about those observers who are not members, and are going out with people like me who do not have, or need, Professional Stalker insurance?

I've been advised to not risk it, but it seems a shame to forego an opportunity to promote what we do when the observer seems so keen. I haven't spoken to BASC/Marsh Insurance yet, but I will try again when their lines are free. If I am covered for 3rd party liability in this circumstance, my observer might be able to claim against me and will therefore be covered?

 

[Morkai]

'Taken out' was an unfortunate turn of phrase.

Would you be classed as a professional in this instance for unsurance purposes?

Their company should provide cover for them if they want them to go out.

 

[VSS]

Certainly not an opportunity to be missed!
I was going to say that I think your BASC insurance will cover it as there's no financial reward, but actually on second thoughts I don't think it will.
What Morkai says is most likely correct. In fact, if he's coming out with you on a normal work day as part of what he does for the Conservation Organisation he works for, no additional cover ought to be required, as their existing cover for employees and volunteers will be enough. Imo.

 

[Mike L]

As VSS says, his company insurance should cover it, he is not doing anything diferent.

 

[Dickie]

If they are doing it as part of the conservation organisations work or as their representative then the organisations insurance should cover them, if they just want to come out as a spectator then they will need their own.

 

[pob]

Certainly not an opportunity to be missed!
I was going to say that I think your BASC insurance will cover it as there's no financial reward, but actually on second thoughts I don't think it will.
What Morkai says is most likely correct. In fact, if he's coming out with you on a normal work day as part of what he does for the Conservation Organisation he works for, no additional cover ought to be required, as their existing cover for employees and volunteers will be enough. Imo.

The advice I'd had from his organisation is that because this is NOT part of his normal role or working hours, his employer's insurance won't cover him, hence my question.

Marsh were very engaged and sympathetic, but there are still grey areas. My 3rd party liability covers me, and therefore him, for a heinous accident, much like any other member of the public, but not for everything. There is a clause for "Indemnity to official guests", but it doesn't seem to apply to my case since I am not an affiliated club or syndicate. Marsh are going to check.

This has got me thinking that if a friend or neighbour wanted to come out and see what it's all about, they're not insured, much as this bloke wouldn't be. Regrettably, that's a blocker to us getting our message across. I have no idea where one would get spectator insurance from......

 

[VSS]

The advice I'd had from his organisation is that because this is NOT part of his normal role or working hours, his employer's insurance won't cover him, hence my question.

Marsh were very engaged and sympathetic, but there are still grey areas. My 3rd party liability covers me, and therefore him, for a heinous accident, much like any other member of the public, but not for everything. There is a clause for "Indemnity to official guests", but it doesn't seem to apply to my case since I am not an affiliated club or syndicate. Marsh are going to check.

This has got me thinking that if a friend or neighbour wanted to come out and see what it's all about, they're not insured, much as this bloke wouldn't be. Regrettably, that's a blocker to us getting our message across. I have no idea where one would get spectator insurance from......

In that case, for him, it's a leisure activity, much the same as going jogging or something like that. So his personal insurance should cover him, provided there's no implied contract (financial or otherwise) between you and him. Imo.

 

[Eddie P]

If your insurance covers you injuring him, him being insured against damage to others caused by him is his problem.
What risks do you forsee?

 

[Bowland blades]

Estate rifle rules , makes it possible for you to supervise someone use your rifle but you have to be there with them supervising and as such ( i think ) it should be you and your insurance that picks up the bill / consequences , if something bad happens?

 

[Mike L]

Estate rifle rules , makes it possible for you to supervise someone use your rifle but you have to be there with them supervising and as such ( i think ) it should be you and your insurance that picks up the bill / consequences , if something bad happens?

The observer isn’t using a rifle?

 

[Bowland blades]

The observer isn’t using a rifle?

Then there is even less to fret over

 

[chriswjx]

Ask them to take out a BASC membership as a business expense?

 

[tarponhead]

The observer isn’t using a rifle?

Can’t you just make it clear by email they are visiting at their own risk? You are being very sensible, but it does make you wonder at the compensation culture world we now live in.

 

[nun_hunter]

If your insurance covers you injuring him, him being insured against damage to others caused by him is his problem.
What risks do you forsee?

I don't get the issue as the guest is just observing and not using a rifle etc. Surely it's no different to them joining you for a dog walk or bike ride.

Your insurance covers you if you hurt them accidentally just like any other member of public and if they're just observing then why would they need any insurance compared to any other leisure activity outdoors?

 

[8x57]

Crikey Moses are we all getting that risk averse that we are afraid to fart and want to insure in case we follow through and sh*t our pants.
If the guy simply wants to tag along to see what you do let him do so.
I take it that you are insured and won't be doing anything silly that would endanger him in any way. If he twists his ankle that's up to him you can't insure everyone and everything, people have to accept some responsibility for their own safety and welfare.

 

[Stalker_AG]

 

[pob]

Good news from BASC/Marsh:
"I have had a response back from senior adviser regarding your enquiry asking if member of public would be covered if observing:

Yes they would assuming that simply observing and all properly equipped etc"

I'm going to put in him a High-Vis jacket, and then crack on.

Thanks for the replies (mostly).

 

[wytonpjs]

Good news from BASC/Marsh:
"I have had a response back from senior adviser regarding your enquiry asking if member of public would be covered if observing:

Yes they would assuming that simply observing and all properly equipped etc"

I'm going to put in him a High-Vis jacket, and then crack on.

Thanks for the replies (mostly).

Blaze Orange

 

[8x57]

Pob who or what will benefit from putting your friend in a Hi-Viz jacket?
Surely such things as ensuring that he is wearing suitable footwear and clothing plus ear protection will be of more benefit. Plus most importantly that you brief him properly of what and what not to do. For instance you'll tell him to keep 1 or 2 paces behind you at all times, that he must never be in front of the rifle etc. etc.
If you don't feel competent or safe to take him out don't take him.

One of the things that I might consider is taking him to the range first and demonstrating just how dangerous a rifle can be, and that you are not messing around its a very serious business with potentially fatal consequences.

 

[pob]

Pob who or what will benefit from putting your friend in a Hi-Viz jacket?
Surely such things as ensuring that he is wearing suitable footwear and clothing plus ear protection will be of more benefit. Plus most importantly that you brief him properly of what and what not to do. For instance you'll tell him to keep 1 or 2 paces behind you at all times, that he must never be in front of the rifle etc. etc.
If you don't feel competent or safe to take him out don't take him.

One of the things that I might consider is taking him to the range first and demonstrating just how dangerous a rifle can be, and that you are not messing around its a very serious business with potentially fatal consequences.

That's a bit of an over-reaction to what was meant to be a jocular throw-away comment on the legal advice that they be "all properly equipped", if I may say so.

But otherwise good advice, which I already planned to adopt, apart from a visit to the range which isn't practical, unfortunately. The general opinion on this thread suggests that I've been overthinking this, but there is a context which I didn't go into. I do feel competent and safe to take people out and I think that I have covered all the bases now.

Thanks to BASC, I now know that I can take any member of the public out to observe any recreational shooting. Has anyone got Michaela Strachan's email address?