Should police land checks be scrapped?

[nun_hunter]

I’ve been waiting 12 months for 3 sets of land to be cleared that I’ve had permission on for 25 years with shotguns, lamping etc. Spoke to the FLD and they said I’m looking at possibly another 6 months at least until an FEO can get out. The one farm borders estate land, which is cleared and the other side another farm which I’ve checked and is cleared to 243. The two farms share a piece of forestry fairly large with a boundary fence through the middle. One side of the fence in the same wood is cleared the other side not. Absolute daftness. I gave a full explanation of the situation, the land, the deer damage and I’m looking at possibly losing these permissions (probably won’t but they don’t need to know that) One of their answers for me was “ Just get someone with an open ticket to go there and shoot instead of you”.
The land check system is a waste of time, if you can’t judge a safe shot by the time you’ve been granted an FAC you shouldn’t have been granted it. When you have the FEO interview there should be an aspect of Q&A in regards to safe shots/ backstops. Wouldn’t take long to knock up a simple powerpoint of pictures to test an applicants safety and shot RA perspective before even being granted, if they fail make it mandatory they receive some form of safety training/testing before they can get a grant.

If the conditions imposed on your FAC make it unworkable and effectively stop you using your rifles then you definitely have grounds to complain. The PCC, Chief Constable, local MP, shooting org etc, literally anyone I could think of would be getting a letter of complaint. One thing police officers/departments hate is getting a complaint made to someone high enough who shouldn't be getting it! It's how things get changed quickly.

I've seen first hand emails sent direct to the Chief Constable then cascaded down through the ranks until some helpless PC on the frontline has to go and resolve it asap.

 

[Robinson]

No. I'm a crap shot with a shotgun. But even so, if I had to blast something at 5 yds I'd be reaching for a shotgun, not a rifle. At that range the rifle bullet would either miss completely, or pass through without causing fatal damage.
I'm sure I've read that a pump-action shotgun is the tool of choice for defence in the case of close-quarters bear attacks, and I guess that's why.

At five yards your shotgun load will be an approximately 20 mm lead lump and a miss with that will be just as useless as a miss with a rifle bullet. And a rifle bullet can pass through without causing fatal damage !!?? Both shotguns and rifles are deadly and dangerous guns to be in the receiving end off. Yes, pump shotguns are much used up one our arctic island for protection against polar bears, but not loaded with actual shot. They all use slugs and the slug still has to hit what's needed to protect the owner of that shotgun.

 

[Jeff8861]

In a world where FEO's understood calibres, fields of fire, ballistics and bullet construction - and actually went to look at land promptly using that knowledge and were able to give new shooters guidance, then the 'open/closed' condition has a place especially in their risk assessment based world. However, the lack of knowledge - and a complete lack of efficacy in being able to process land checks in their simplest form means sadly the process is nugatory. And when pressure is applied they seem to think handing out an unrestricted license is the best way to remove the noise created. On top of variations taking an unnecessary amount of time, it is one piece of the jigsaw that could be removed.

So you think all feo's have no knowledge of calibres ballistics land etc. Very sweeping incorrect statement.

 

[VSS]

So you think all feo's have no knowledge of calibres ballistics land etc. Very sweeping incorrect statement.

Good point!
Of the five FEOs that I have dealt with over the past 10 years or so, two were rifle shooters and one a shotgun shooter.
Of the other two, only one was clueless.

 

[8x57]

So you think all feo's have no knowledge of calibres ballistics land etc. Very sweeping incorrect statement.

Some do and some don't.
No exaggeration but one that I had dealings with some years ago relied solely on a Norma ammunition catalogue for his knowledge of ballistics. He was a nice guy and very helpful but his knowledge of anything other than shotguns was very limited.

 

[Jeff8861]

Some do and some don't.
No exaggeration but one that I had dealings with some years ago relied solely on a Norma ammunition catalogue for his knowledge of ballistics. He was a nice guy and very helpful but his knowledge of anything other than shotguns was very limited.

Yes you are going to get that it. But it works both ways. Trust me ive dealt with them and removed thier authority.

 

[nun_hunter]

Because a rifle bullet may pass through without necessarily causing an immediate fatality, at close range a shotgun will cause massive tissue damage almost certainly resulting in a fatal haemorrhage.

We're not discussing actively trying to shoot people though, we're talking about people making a mistake while judging a safe backstop. That's where a rifle is more dangerous.

 

[Eric the Red]

So you think all feo's have no knowledge of calibres ballistics land etc. Very sweeping incorrect statement.

As Sir is yours. That was not what I said and I think it's pretty plain - and certainly no defense against the statement even as you have chosen to read it. And while I have no doubt you keep your own constabulary in good order in the service it delivers to its shooting community via knowledgeable, enabled FEO's, you are in the minority - significantly. I can cite, as will the collective here, multiple examples of lack of knowledge, ineptitude, incorrect application of law (as well as lack of knowledge of it) across the 42 other constabularies of England and Wales. So while I applaud the quality you clearly provide and urge you to keep delivering it, I also say use it to improve the lowest common denominator as opposed hold it up as the de facto standard. You would be as Canute was to the advancing tide to suggest that the Firearms Licensing provision across the UK was anywhere close to adequate, let alone consistent.

 

[Loki]

Deleted - adds nothing to the topic discussion as would be 'hearsay'. with regards to FEO knowledge and experience.

 

[finnbear270]

Think of the financial savings having Police UK, One lot of logo's, one lot of rules, one lot of senior officers etc........ Scotland did it. N. Ireland have PSNI.
Currently it's like medieaval times, Lord of Clun has a county, fiefdom of Lancaster has a county, ad infinitum.

 

[8x57]

Think of the financial savings having Police UK, One lot of logo's, one lot of rules, one lot of senior officers etc........ Scotland did it. N. Ireland have PSNI.
Currently it's like medieaval times, Lord of Clun has a county, fiefdom of Lancaster has a county, ad infinitum.

It would never work. I'm absolutely dreading and so should you that the Welsh assembly get their wish and amalgamate the four forces in Wales in an effort to take governance of them from the Home Office. The present system may not be perfect but that alternative would be a disaster.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Think of the financial savings having Police UK, One lot of logo's, one lot of rules, one lot of senior officers etc........ Scotland did it. N. Ireland have PSNI.
Currently it's like medieaval times, Lord of Clun has a county, fiefdom of Lancaster has a county, ad infinitum.

The only thing I would be concerned about is centralised governance of the police by senior officers in a closed shop more concerned about their own career advancement than delivering quality policing and service. This is bad enough on a regional level already.
What works for central London would not necessarily be suitable in the fens for example. The police have eroded their public consent by retreating behind the gates of ever more isolated and intimidating police stations that look far more like crusader forts. Behaving like Norman knights suits their overlord mentality in some respects but the days of the local bobby maintaining order as a part of the local community are long gone and will never return. In fairness, if you look at the criminals and problems they have to deal with, the old style system couldn't manage that, and the change is a function of the world they inhabit.
One size-fits-all coppering sounds like a recipe for disaster in today's UK, much like one-size-fits all healthcare, environmental policy, agricultural policy etc etc.
I think there is a case for a two tiered system, such as in America, but I fear that the Police have neither the resources nor enough respect within the fringes of society to be able to make it work.
It is a knotty problem, but interesting to consider. Covid taught us that neighbours are all too keen to denounce their neighbours for little better reason than they like the sight of blue lights. No simple answers.

 

[finnbear270]

Did it fail in Scotland?

 

[8x57]

Did it fail in Scotland?

That's presently under debate.
PSNI is an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

[Spear Chucker]

It would never work. I'm absolutely dreading and so should you that the Welsh assembly get their wish and amalgamate the four forces in Wales in an effort to take governance of them from the Home Office. The present system may not be perfect but that alternative would be a disaster.

All part of the Marxist master plan. You wait...we'll have a Spanish Chief Constable when the next lot take over.

 

[Turnips]

I'm hoping @Conor O'Gorman gets back on this, as I'm in a similar boat; I have the same 'closed' condition for my stalking rifle but have invitations to shoot in counties where land checks are not carried out, and am looking to book stalking in Scotland but want to ensure that my local force can see I am being compliant.

I agree that it would be better to not have this and that some forces have led the way, presumably without problem as they have gone back if there were, then other forces should follow suit. As others have said, the shot is going to be the shooters call in either case and effective risk assessment by the shooter the key factor.

Question for everyone…
I have a restricted FAC, I am a member a syndicate with land dispersed across the country… if the force for the land to be shot does not inspect land, does that mean it is deemed suitable by the chief constable (in effect by exemption) and so I am compliant, or I cannot show it is deemed suitable and so would not be compliant?

(Nb. I’ve requested and had rejected a request for open certificate - “lack of relevant experience” so don’t just suggest that!!)

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I'm hoping @Conor O'Gorman gets back on this, as I'm in a similar boat; I have the same 'closed' condition for my stalking rifle but have invitations to shoot in counties where land checks are not carried out, and am looking to book stalking in Scotland but want to ensure that my local force can see I am being compliant.

I have checked with a colleague in BASC's firearms team, given it's a generic query in the context of the article, and some feedback as follows:

On a 'closed/restricted' cert, you can only shoot on land which has been deemed acceptable by the Police. Your FAC may mention a primary piece of land, but you can still shoot elsewhere, if you can ascertain that the other land has been similarly signed off. The condition would likely read along the lines of “X rifle shall be used for Deer and any other legal quarry, at Smith’s Farm or land over which the licence holder has lawful authority to shoot and that has been deemed suitable by the Chief officer” etc. etc.

If a certificate holder has this 'restricted' certificate, it essentially prevents them from shooting in a jurisdiction where land is not checked. For example, if a cert holder plans to go stalking in Scotland, they need an 'open' certificate.

There is further context here:

Firearm certificate ‘open’ conditions

Conditions are a method available to police to regulate the behaviour of certificate holders. We explain what this means in practical terms.

basc.org.uk

Rifles, Calibres and Land: Advice for Firearms Enquiry Officers

A broad overview of advice and guidance related to key terminology and designed to assist police firearms enquiry officers

basc.org.uk

Hope that helps and if you are after specific advice best to contact your FEO and/or your shooting organisation.

 

[Trickyd66]

I have checked with a colleague in BASC's firearms team, given it's a generic query in the context of the article, and some feedback as follows:

On a 'closed/restricted' cert, you can only shoot on land which has been deemed acceptable by the Police. Your FAC may mention a primary piece of land, but you can still shoot elsewhere, if you can ascertain that the other land has been similarly signed off. The condition would likely read along the lines of “X rifle shall be used for Deer and any other legal quarry, at Smith’s Farm or land over which the licence holder has lawful authority to shoot and that has been deemed suitable by the Chief officer” etc. etc.

If a certificate holder has this 'restricted' certificate, it essentially prevents them from shooting in a jurisdiction where land is not checked. For example, if a cert holder plans to go stalking in Scotland, they need an 'open' certificate.

There is further context here:

Firearm certificate ‘open’ conditions

Conditions are a method available to police to regulate the behaviour of certificate holders. We explain what this means in practical terms.

basc.org.uk

Rifles, Calibres and Land: Advice for Firearms Enquiry Officers

A broad overview of advice and guidance related to key terminology and designed to assist police firearms enquiry officers

basc.org.uk

Hope that helps and if you are after specific advice best to contact your FEO and/or your shooting organisation.

Does BASC know if west Yorkshire, the met, and Wiltshire are just issuing un conditioned (with regard to land deemed suitable)FAC's on application or whether they are using historic records for new issues?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Does BASC know if west Yorkshire, the met, and Wiltshire are just issuing un conditioned (with regard to land deemed suitable)FAC's on application or whether they are using historic records for new issues?

I can look into it, but may I ask if you are a BASC member?

 

[Trickyd66]

I can look into it, but may I ask if you are a BASC member?

Of course, I have nothing to hide . Not cucurrently a member as I found an alternative provider for what my BASC membership was primarily for, but possibly looking to rejoin at some point.