The possible legal use of .223 caliber

[Heym SR20]

Cat amongst the pigeons. Fallow pricket on fields with back leg smashed and only able to trot slowly
.22 Hornet in hand deer 50 yds crossing. To shoot or not to shoot, that is the question?
I know my thoughts, but it's not an obvious RTA so .......

You have a defense under the deer acts that you were shooting on welfare grounds. If you do not already have permission for the land you should seek the landowners consent if this available and you reasonably believe that such permission would be forthcoming. But you should notify the landowner as soon as possible post the event. You do not have any rights to carcass.

 

[mikreez]

Well, Finland is not part of scandinavia but close enough.
Here regulation is following:

Category 1: fox, badger, hare, goose, grouse
Bullet ≥ 2,5g Energy at 100m ≥ 200J or with any bullet weight 300J at muzzle.

Category 2: roe, seal, wolf, wolverine, beaver, muflon.
A) Bullet ≥ 3,2g Energy at 100m ≥ 800J
B) Lead free ≥ 2,9g Energy at 100m ≥ 800J

Category 3: whitetail, (red deer, fallow, sika)
A) Bullet ≥ 6g Energy at 100m ≥ 2000J
B) Bullet ≥ 8g Energy at 100m ≥ 1700J
C) Lead free ≥ 5,1g Energy at 100m ≥ 1700J

Category 4: moose, wildboar, bear
A) Bullet ≥ 9g Energy at 100m ≥ 2700J
B) Bullet ≥ 10g Energy at 100m ≥ 2000J
C) Lead free ≥ 7,5g Energy at 100m ≥ 1900J

At category 3-4 bullet must be expanding.
So .223 falls in category 2.

Thanks, great info!

 

[mikreez]

Hi,
What is the definition of 223 in this thread.
Thanks, Kb.

Hi, I had in mind .223 Rem

 

[kenbro]

A very good summation of the legal use of a 222 or 223 on deer in the UK.

You can also use the 223 for vermin and foxes and it is widely used for such purposes. There is no minimum bullet weight.

Technically if you had a fast twist barrel that would stabilise an 80gn bullet and a powder that would propel that propell that 80gn bullet to 3,200 fps thus achieving 1,750 ft lbs of energy you could use it on bigger deer in Scotland as there is no min cal. Not sure if there are any powders with energy density to achieve such velocities in a 223 and 80gn bullet.

The 223 is widely used for target shooting as its cheap to run.

If you’re referring to .223 Remington then no, probably impossible to achieve what’s needed for reds etc. in Scotland.
Kb.

 

[User00057]

A simple google search of what deer calibre is legal for Deer in the UK throws up pages of the same answer.
This is why I think DSC1 should be completed by people like this.

 

[Heym SR20]

If you’re referring to .223 Remington then no, probably impossible to achieve what’s needed for reds etc. in Scotland.
Kb.

As I said legally possible, but with available powders probably not possible. But given developments in progressive powder technology which give sustained pressures throughout the burn who knows?

 

[kenbro]

As I said legally possible, but with available powders probably not possible. But given developments in progressive powder technology which give sustained pressures throughout the burn who knows?

Not I.
Kb.

 

[DVS1]

Surely as this country of ours is a UNITED Kingdom then deer laws should be the same from Lands End to John O Groats and into the areas of the Emerald Isle!? One blanket of requirements full stop...or are they suggesting English Roe tougher than Scottish Roe etc??

 

[kenbro]

Surely as this country of ours is a UNITED Kingdom then deer laws should be the same from Lands End to John O Groats and into the areas of the Emerald Isle!? One blanket of requirements full stop...or are they suggesting English Roe tougher than Scottish Roe etc??

There’s many more things than Deer Shooting Laws that differ from country to country in the UK.
Kb.

 

[DVS1]

There’s many more things than Deer Shooting Laws that differ from country to country in the UK.
Kb.

Totally understand and appreciate that Ken, just being specific to deer

 

[KimE]

Sweden almost the same as for Norway, lynx, roedeer, beaver and smaller most useful for "birds in top of trees hunts" with fmj bullets. Some countys allows 222r and up for use on seals too. 140gr/100m 2700j are the limit for biggame.

 

[Heym SR20]

Surely as this country of ours is a UNITED Kingdom then deer laws should be the same from Lands End to John O Groats and into the areas of the Emerald Isle!? One blanket of requirements full stop...or are they suggesting English Roe tougher than Scottish Roe etc??

the “united” bit implies that the crowns of England, Scotland and Ireland were united when James VI became James 1 of England and Scotland in 1603. Jurisdiction and law in each kingdom remained their own. Ireland had its own Parliament. The English and Scottish combined the two parliaments in 1707. As par of the Act of Union Scots Law remained independent of English Law and in practice is very different. English is full of case law and evolves on basic of court judgements. Scots is based on Roman Law and goes to the principal law and interpretation there of. It also allows for intended meaning of law or contract to be used, whereas English Law goes on the letter of the law even if there is mistake in the law.

In most other countries in Europe, US etc there is quite a variation in law between local counties, states, departments etc. In the US there are big differences between various states in gun law. In some you can straight wall cartridges. Others all 22 to be used on everything. Etc etc.

There have been many other United crowns - Sweden and Norway and Austro Hungarian comes to mind. In these, the countries were really quite seperate, different citizenship etc with customs borders etc between them.

So in response to your comments, there are big differences in all legislation between Scotland and England. We have a 50mg limit on blood alcohol, England has 80mg - plenty are caught out by this. After a good night you can quickly drop below 80mg, but getting below 50mg can take 24 to 36 hours.

Scotland has a jury of 15, with three verdicts, Guilty, not guilty and not proven.

Go specifically to min calibre requirements, in England these are enshrined within the Deer Act and thus requires an Act of Parliament to alter, whereas the Scottish Deer Act gives power to the Scottish Minister to make orders as to appropriate equipment that may be used, and to change this from time to time, along with close seasons etc etc.

 

[DVS1]

T

the “united” bit implies that the crowns of England, Scotland and Ireland were united when James VI became James 1 of England and Scotland in 1603. Jurisdiction and law in each kingdom remained their own. Ireland had its own Parliament. The English and Scottish combined the two parliaments in 1707. As par of the Act of Union Scots Law remained independent of English Law and in practice is very different. English is full of case law and evolves on basic of court judgements. Scots is based on Roman Law and goes to the principal law and interpretation there of. It also allows for intended meaning of law or contract to be used, whereas English Law goes on the letter of the law even if there is mistake in the law.

In most other countries in Europe, US etc there is quite a variation in law between local counties, states, departments etc. In the US there are big differences between various states in gun law. In some you can straight wall cartridges. Others all 22 to be used on everything. Etc etc.

There have been many other United crowns - Sweden and Norway and Austro Hungarian comes to mind. In these, the countries were really quite seperate, different citizenship etc with customs borders etc between them.

So in response to your comments, there are big differences in all legislation between Scotland and England. We have a 50mg limit on blood alcohol, England has 80mg - plenty are caught out by this. After a good night you can quickly drop below 80mg, but getting below 50mg can take 24 to 36 hours.

Scotland has a jury of 15, with three verdicts, Guilty, not guilty and not proven.

Go specifically to min calibre requirements, in England these are enshrined within the Deer Act and thus requires an Act of Parliament to alter, whereas the Scottish Deer Act gives power to the Scottish Minister to make orders as to appropriate equipment that may be used, and to change this from time to time, along with close seasons etc etc.

Thanks for the history lesson

 

[Acm]

I`m worried how many people on here are just guessing about the use of a .223 in the UK,

Some things in life are worth worrying about, this isn’t.

 

[NP435]

Now that is a long shot...

View attachment 371913

If you have a .270 win that's nothing.

 

[cohannon]

One of the saving graces I remind myself of everytime I get frustrated I can't get 2 .223's on one for day one for night.

Don't know who you are talking to but I have three .223 calibre rifles on my NI FAC with a clearly defined "NEED" for each one. I suggest you apply for a variation clearly stating it is for dedicated use during the hours of darkness for fox control. It would do no harm to include supporting letter from a local sheep farmer.

 

[zerovarm]

Don't know who you are talking to but I have three .223 calibre rifles on my NI FAC with a clearly defined "NEED" for each one. I suggest you apply for a variation clearly stating it is for dedicated use during the hours of darkness for fox control. It would do no harm to include supporting letter from a local sheep farmer.

Fair play to you. Not hard to come up with justifiable "good reason" the stumbling block is every Rfd in the country telling you it can't be done. If you have found differently that certainly changes things

 

[cohannon]

I have always found that Gordon Newell from Hollow Farm Shooting Ground outside Comber is the right RFD to talk to regarding variation approval methods.

 

[Smellydog]

Fair play to you. Not hard to come up with justifiable "good reason" the stumbling block is every Rfd in the country telling you it can't be done. If you have found differently that certainly changes things

Don't ask for opinions from anyone.
You only need a " good reason".
In your case a dedicated night vision sight system for night time only use means a second rifle irrespective of calibre within the approved group.

I could apply for a second 222. While my NV unit works in the day it's not a patch on glass.

 

[zerovarm]

Don't ask for opinions from anyone.
You only need a " good reason".
In your case a dedicated night vision sight system for night time only use means a second rifle irrespective of calibre within the approved group.

I could apply for a second 222. While my NV unit works in the day it's not a patch on glass.

I agree seems to be no issue for you chaps in England getting one of each on for day and night use. In Northern Ireland to doesn't appear to be the case. You will get a 2nd of the same calibre here for club use but for Vermin Control have always been led to believe by those that are supposed to be "informed" it won't be sanctioned. Interesting