UK use of dangerous game cartidges

[Hanechdene]

Went through this with TVP.

After renewal, 300 and 375 only allowed for use over seas and at “approved ranges” after being open.

My farm was deemed unsuitable after 20 years of having a 300 and 7 for 375.

After an 18 months battle, I am allowed to use them on the farm and land deemed suitable…….

You will need to show a case that you need to practice so that you are competent and familiar with the rifle in what can be a potentially dangerous situation for your safety and others around you.

The best you are likely to achieve is for practice in this country………

 

[Dalua]

If this is true (I do not doubt your integrity @Selous), then this is rather worrying.

Is your friend minded to challenge this?

I do wonder what your friend articulated when they made the request? Did they say they 'only' wanted if for (eg) Africa? Did they make it clear that they would need to zero/practice in the UK?

I am sure that most on here will be familiar with the 'normal' FAC wording in relation to 'Safari' rifles - see below for my .416.

View attachment 378105


However, and it support of your assertion that there seems to be a 'change in the wind'...


Until I submitted my FAC for a non-related variation (Mauser K98k - thanks for asking), my .375 which had been granted about fifteen years ago for deer, came back with this new 'condition'.


So they no longer consider the .375 appropriate for deer, unless it is beyond Hadrian's Wall and outwith their jurisdiction.

Could make a grown man weep...

Stupid rules imposed by folk who should know better, and which does nothing to add to public safety.

It seems that the FAC-holder is under obligation ('...shall be carried') to carry the .416 rifle and ammuntion whenever going to or from a port of embarkation. This condition seems to be independent of any need to use either item while abroad.

With that in mind, any visits to the range (or other excursions with the rifle, such as a visit to the gunmaker to have it mended) presumably have to occur on the way to or from a port of embarkation, since that it the only kind of journey on which carrying it appears to be permitted.

Or have I misunderstood?

 

[25 Sharps]

Exactly. I attached the relevant sections of the guidelines to my response.

The issue I have here, as much as anything else, is that they have come to me saying that they made a mistake when they granted it for use in the UK and that they are only following the guidelines. That simply isn't true because we went through the whole thing in great detail and they wanted to grant it because other people in my force are had a .416, but not a .458 that I'd originally asked for. I was fine with the change because it seemed that a small detail would make their life easier. That on top of the "following the guidelines", which makes me feel like they're treating me like an idiot by making excuses, has got my back up.

Understandably so, can you elevate the discussion within the dept?

 

[Stalker62]

Or have I misunderstood?

@Dalua

No.

What you have done, is highlight the nonsense that these conditions are.

 

[Selous]

If this is true (I do not doubt your integrity @Selous), then this is rather worrying.

Is your friend minded to challenge this?

I do wonder what your friend articulated when they made the request? Did they say they 'only' wanted if for (eg) Africa? Did they make it clear that they would need to zero/practice in the UK?

I am sure that most on here will be familiar with the 'normal' FAC wording in relation to 'Safari' rifles - see below for my .416.

View attachment 378105


However, and it support of your assertion that there seems to be a 'change in the wind'...


Until I submitted my FAC for a non-related variation (Mauser K98k - thanks for asking), my .375 which had been granted about fifteen years ago for deer, came back with this new 'condition'.


So they no longer consider the .375 appropriate for deer, unless it is beyond Hadrian's Wall and outwith their jurisdiction.

Could make a grown man weep...

Stupid rules imposed by folk who should know better, and which does nothing to add to public safety.

Yes this is being challenged and yes range use was requested.
The rules are stupid enough when interpreted as intended but when someone with no appreciation of the practical uses of firearms becomes involved at Chief Inspector level then the wheels fall off the pram and the process becomes farcical. If it were funny I would laugh…. But it’s not!!

 

[finnbear270]

Yes this is being challenged and yes range use was requested.
The rules are stupid enough when interpreted as intended but when someone with no appreciation of the practical uses of firearms becomes involved at Chief Inspector level then the wheels fall off the pram and the process becomes farcical. If it were funny I would laugh…. But it’s not!!

Sounds like the same typing pool that told you to change your name

 

[kingstonandy]

There was a challenge in court I believe in Staffordshire, after which those of us with 9.3mm and .375 rifles were given AOLQ conditions on request.

 

[Dickie]

There was a challenge in court I believe in Staffordshire, after which those of us with 9.3mm and .375 rifles were given AOLQ conditions on request.

If there was a challenge in court that won, if armed with that shouldn’t it be the same for all?

 

[Eddie P]

There was a challenge in court I believe in Staffordshire, after which those of us with 9.3mm and .375 rifles were given AOLQ conditions on request.

When was that?

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

I lived in London and I had my .375 in my open ticket and the first animal I took was a red stag. It was never an issue.

 

[Jagdmatch]

I have typed several replies to this and not continued with them as posting whilst cross is never a good idea!
I have 4 rifles that are .375/9.3 and above. They are all conditioned for AOLQ so I can practice / carry out load development on land that I have permission to shoot over I have shot deer with 3 of them. I also shoot them all at Bisley and on other ranges that are suitable for use.
Some of the issue is the use of Dangerous Game as a descriptor. (The chart in the guidance comes from the late 1960s) They are just rifles of larger calibre than the expected deer calibres or target shooting. The muzzle energy is greater but drops away very quickly and is below the figure for .308 at 300m. I would suggest that they are no more dangerous than any other calibre when used in the UK. The use of the word Dangerous in any legal context (Dogs, use of force, criminals, crossbows and firearms) sharpens up the opinion of the Pollce.

Then we turn to 375 being ok but 416 not!
The difference is just over 1mm. The bullet is heavier so more ME but again dropping away quickly.
Ask them to justify every decision they make using the National decision making model
It really is time for firearms Licencing to stop obsessing about calibres and focus on the individual.

 

[Nkawu]

I have just been denied a request for getting my 375 H&H opened for UK deer stalking (Warwickshire). The best they could offer was ‘closed’ on a hunt by hunt basis with land owners permission and details etc. Also I need to prove good reason by showing multiple years worth of bookings/hunts up front.

 

[GlennUK]

@Dalua

No.

What you have done, is highlight the nonsense that these conditions are.

Aside for the fact that any FAC caliber is potentially lethal, it is illogical to brand one caliber 'more lethal' than others given the purpose for which deer stalking rifles are used i.e. killing relatively large mammals, unless of course the is a particular species of human that needs protecting from such large calibres that is.

 

[Tim.243]

Aside for the fact that any FAC caliber is potentially lethal, it is illogical to brand one caliber 'more lethal' than others given the purpose for which deer stalking rifles are used i.e. killing relatively large mammals, unless of course the is a particular species of human that needs protecting from such large calibres that is.

My favourite PH to watch on YT, nearly came un-stuck with his "dangerous game rifle/cartridge"
He said that persuaded him to buy a new double..

Moving big live stock, walking dogs across a cow field is dangerous... but you don't need a .416

 

[kingstonandy]

When was that?

Roughly five years ago. I don't know any details at all I'm afraid, I only heard about it through local friends.
I do know that when I sent my certificate in with a letter mentioning the case it came back promptly with the AOLQ condition as requested.

 

[Selous]

My favourite PH to watch on YT, nearly came un-stuck with his "dangerous game rifle/cartridge"
He said that persuaded him to buy a new double..

Moving big live stock, walking dogs across a cow field is dangerous... but you don't need a .416

Buzz is a nice guy and an excellent PH who is very experienced with elephant. He seemed to be having problems extracting the .416 case from his Ruger. He went on to shoot a 500 Nitro double and I believe is moving to a Rigby double

 

[DRN]

I was granted a .375 h&h with very restrictive conditions initially. Abroad and approved ranges.
I wrote a long letter quoting the guidelines and reasons why it should be opened like the rest of my rifles. I had a fairly long wait for a reply.
Eventually I had a call back with what a very hostile opening from the firearms team.
Top tip, never rise.
I think they were testing me.
I stayed super calm and kept quoting the guidelines and explained my reasoning.
Eventually we moved from never opening it to extremely unlikely but we will see what head office say.
I was also told that no one in D&C had a open .375. I politely pointed out that was factually incorrect as I knew 3 people in D&C with open .375s
Now it's open.
I probably have a copy of the letter if you send me a pm I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Dickie]

My favourite PH to watch on YT, nearly came un-stuck with his "dangerous game rifle/cartridge"
He said that persuaded him to buy a new double..

Moving big live stock, walking dogs across a cow field is dangerous... but you don't need a .416

Anything useful to say on the subject.

 

[ofbiro]

In the meantime sporting goods shops sold a dozen ice picks to people deprived of the most elementary notions of mountaineering, while hardware and DIY sold a volume of hatchets, axes, a.s.o.
But firearms are dangerous!

 

[Tim.243]

In the meantime sporting goods shops sold a dozen ice picks to people deprived of the most elementary notions of mountaineering, while hardware and DIY sold a volume of hatchets, axes, a.s.o.
But firearms are dangerous!

With Firearms you have lots hoops to go through which leaves the rest to shop on line for the ice picks, go to a farm supply store and you can buy an axe brushing hook (slasher of you want to call it that) you can buy cartridges (with your sgc) but you won't buy a firearm thank God.