Pine Martins in the South West. Yeh or ney?

[Mungo]

Private investment with results based reward, gamekeepers only as good as their last season.
Public funds rewarding failure, Capercaillie had 10 million thrown at in 2021 3 years later need more money?
I personally want to preserve all indigenous species, I get a little upset when failure is rewarded.
Badger, pinemarten and corvid control would give a fairly quick and cost effective way of preserving what we have left, it would also give breathing space to other species that are not on deaths door.

All very good points.

The core underlying issue is that they’re in tiny fragments that are heavily disturbed.

Predation isn’t an issue in huge areas of continuous habitat - that’s how they evolved and how they persist on the continent. It’s important to remember that they existed perfectly well without predator control before we came along.

Predator control is necessary if they’re in small isolated populations.

But then there’s the unavoidable problem of deciding which species you want to prioritise. You can’t have them all: as is obvious here, if you want capercaillie, you can’t have predators, if you want predators you can’t have caper.

I can’t decide if the conservation agencies know this, but are trying to pretend it’s not true. Or if they genuinely don’t realise.

Based on recent experience trying to help get permission to plant trees near curlew, the RSPB is very aware of it. They are violently opposed to tree planting anywhere near curlew, and they list predation risk as the main reason.

I think trying to sustain capercailie in Scotland is completely pointless until there’s a much bigger area of connected, undisturbed habitat for them.

 

[angusb1]

there’s the unavoidable problem of deciding which species you want to prioritise. You can’t have them all: as is obvious here, if you want capercaillie, you can’t have predators, if you want predators you can’t have caper.

I can’t decide if the conservation agencies know this, but are trying to pretend it’s not true. Or if they genuinely don’t realise.

It all seems like a desperate attempt to reinvent the wheel to me. Predators have a natural place in pristine wildernesses but that isn't where we have been living for thousands of years in this country. Reintroducing them is going to have negative impacts on all kinds of endangered species like ground nesting birds and all the other "bottom rung" species that are currently getting predated on by domestic cats, mink and other mustelids, and losing their habitats due to practices we have introduced. It's a fantasy that will unleash animals that will cause even more trouble for species we should be protecting and it will be difficult to undo that damage as the reintroduced predators will be protected. We as a nation should just admit that the methods of managing the countryside for field sports are the best way and promote that environment rather than wasting our time with politically motivated alternatives. Some people are obsessed with the idea that the countryside should be one big national park for huge numbers of people to access because they think it has been the hunting reserve of the wealthy and I think this is what drives a lot of these conservation organisations and their agendas.

 

[Basil H]

Roy Dennis has given his thoughts on the capercaillie situation in a guest piece on the mark avery blog site this morning.

 

[Blue400]

Imo, they're worse than mink, reintroduction of predators will not read the rule book, Martin's will kill the easiest pray and not just grey squirrels. All bird species are at risk from Martins. Look at the example of the see eagle reintroduction, that went well for the sheep farmers, not!!
Atb Blue.

 

[Roebuck9]

Yes definitely a good idea. They will eat the slow fat grey ones first. Could be a good answer to our grey squirrel problem.

The theory behind the introduction of PMs is that the greys are bigger and heavier than reds and cannot get as far to the outer branches of trees as the Reds so the PMs can get to the greys but not to the Reds, so the Reds escape predation.

I have not seen PMs in this part of UK so do not know if it is working but knowing what mankind has done to adversly affect wildlife when they thought it would work and it did not does not surprise me but I hope it does.

 

[Camdig]

All very good points.

The core underlying issue is that they’re in tiny fragments that are heavily disturbed.

Predation isn’t an issue in huge areas of continuous habitat - that’s how they evolved and how they persist on the continent. It’s important to remember that they existed perfectly well without predator control before we came along.

Predator control is necessary if they’re in small isolated populations.

But then there’s the unavoidable problem of deciding which species you want to prioritise. You can’t have them all: as is obvious here, if you want capercaillie, you can’t have predators, if you want predators you can’t have caper.

I can’t decide if the conservation agencies know this, but are trying to pretend it’s not true. Or if they genuinely don’t realise.

Based on recent experience trying to help get permission to plant trees near curlew, the RSPB is very aware of it. They are violently opposed to tree planting anywhere near curlew, and they list predation risk as the main reason.

I think trying to sustain capercailie in Scotland is completely pointless until there’s a much bigger area of connected, undisturbed habitat for them.

While we agree on habitat and disturbance being a major player for sustainable population, it would also be beneficial for all ground nesting birds that badgers and corvids are brought back to sustainable levels which doesn't mean eradication.
Corvids have boomed all over the country probably more to with agricultural practices than anything else.
Badgers have enjoyed blanket protection since the 70's and are now in every orifice of Britain, imo the protection of badgers and the decline in ground nesting birds go hand in hand.
Most of Europe still has a common sense approach with hunting controls of over/under populated species with hunters being being the canary in the mine so to speak.
The Curlew would 100% benefit from badger and corvid control, around here 15 years ago Oyster Cachers and Curlews would attempt to nest in threshy grass field with minimal success, if you are lucky you might see a pair of mallard knocking about in the day, on a night time not unusual to see a dozen badgers.
Quality habitat is essential, minimal disruption is essential at nesting times and predator control is essential, if all three points were addressed from the start of declines we wouldn't be discussing this today.

 

[barkerint]

So the SW Pinemartin project is going ahead. Any opinions? (Specifically the "living with Pine martins")

Pine martens on your land - Pine Martens Bounce Back

Pine Martens on Your Land Navigating challenges with pine martens Support and Resources for Landowners Bringing back species, particularly a critically endangered predator like a pine marten, is complicated. It can bring challenges to a range of people – from those interested in vulnerable...

twomoorspinemartens.org

No way another predator to kill our birds and wildlife

 

[olliehopes]

Saw a mate of mine who's a keeper yesterday. Swore blindly he saw one on his shoot between Salisbury and Romsey the other day...

 

[Dunwaters]

There are a few around Somerset at present, but there is a release programme underway for Exmoor/ Dartmoor to reduce the number of grey squirrel, reducing damage to forestry and allowing Red squirrel to be reintroduced. Two Moors Pine Marten project timeline | Devon Wildlife Trust

I'm very sceptical of the claims that Pine marten don’t prey on red squirrels.
They’re present throughout the Northern hemisphere in both North America and Eurasia. In Eurasia the only squirrels they have access to are reds, except here and in the UK.
Yet they’re doing fine and produce a harvestable surplus wherever they occur.

 

[landkeeper]

They certainly control greys here where I live there are no greys a few reds ,down in North meath the greys have gone . Not seen one in about 10yrs pine martens are widespread now I see more dead ones on the road than any other species ,they are wantonly destructive and have little or no fear of humans ,quite happy around houses bins any foodsource

 

[big ears]

The theory behind the introduction of PMs is that the greys are bigger and heavier than reds and cannot get as far to the outer branches of trees as the Reds so the PMs can get to the greys but not to the Reds, so the Reds escape predation.

I have not seen PMs in this part of UK so do not know if it is working but knowing what mankind has done to adversly affect wildlife when they thought it would work and it did not does not surprise me but I hope it does.

Has in Wales apparently

 

[big ears]

I'm very sceptical of the claims that Pine marten don’t prey on red squirrels.
They’re present throughout the Northern hemisphere in both North America and Eurasia. In Eurasia the only squirrels they have access to are reds, except here and in the UK.
Yet they’re doing fine and produce a harvestable surplus wherever they occur.

My understanding was that they do Preston reds, just that reds are sly and quick and rarely caught.

 

[jall55]

My understanding was that they do Preston reds, just that reds are sly and quick and rarely caught.

I think they make up as they go along tbh
A grey is far faster
These reintroductions just get money from the grannies

Have a look at the money Kent WT has spent on a bison bridge or something - over 1million i believe ! Its on their Instagram

This Pine Marten project to release 6 or 8 or whatever again has cost over 1 million pounds i believe

 

[Dunwaters]

My understanding was that they do Preston reds, just that reds are sly and quick and rarely caught.

I’d say reds are rarely caught by pine marten in the UK and Ireland because they’re not around to be caught.
As above, martens have no problem catching them anywhere else around the planet, I smell self serving bullshite from the pro Pine marten lobby.
Incidentally, despite being present in all 32 counties and both jurisdictions on this island, pine martens are officially “rare” and are strictly protected.

 

[big ears]

I’d say reds are rarely caught by pine marten in the UK and Ireland because they’re not around to be caught.
As above, martens have no problem catching them anywhere else around the planet, I smell self serving bullshite from the pro Pine marten brigade.
Incidentally, despite being present in all 32 counties and both jurisdictions on this island, pine martens are officially “rare” and are strictly protected.

Maybe but if it reduces the grey population I’m in favour.
There are two sites down here in the Duchy trying to reintroduce but there are so many greys it won’t work.

 

[Dunwaters]

Maybe but if it reduces the grey population I’m in favour.
There are two sites down here in the Duchy trying to reintroduce but there are so many greys it won’t work.

If they reduce the population of greys, they’ll reduce the population of reds and everything else once the greys are gone.
They’re a really efficient predator and perfectly capable of taking prey up to hare size, they climb trees and can and will target nesting birds. Your free range backyard poultry will go because they’re really difficult to keep out.
Then one moves into your attic and you get told that you can’t evict it…
Like lots of people, I like the idea of pine martens, I just don’t want them in my own back garden.

 

[downwind]

Didn't there used to be a bounty on Grey Squirrel tails a few years ago or is my septuagenarian memory playing tricks on me again?

 

[old keeper]

Didn't there used to be a bounty on Grey Squirrel tails a few years ago or is my septuagenarian memory playing tricks on me again?

Yes, there was, and cheap cartridges to shoot them with.

 

[downwind]

Yes, there was, and cheap cartridges to shoot them with.

Thanks for that, confirmation that I'm not totally losing my marbles!!

 

[old keeper]

There was also a 23/6d bounty on cormorant beaks, paid by the local harbourmaster