Gloucestershire Police - Requiring Training before Shotgun Certificate Grant

[Smellydog]

The reason the law is open to interpretation so much in firearms laws is for that same old British reason. The one used to control, divide and conquer.
Just look how the shooting fraternity is divided on issues around the law and all it vagaries !

Don't you all see it?

 

[Dickie]

I think what people are missing in this case the SGC applicant has several experienced SGC holders who he has shot with and have offered to vouch for and mentor but this has been refused and a £450 course advised.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Please accept my apologies Conor. Long day, fighting with the b***dy website trying to register 6 flaming bantams etc. when I could have been doing something I needed to do. I then saw Gloucs Police being an extension of the problem. My post was ill mannered, bad tempered and no better than you'd expect from an angry 3 yr old. Also not helpful to the OP who has a genuine problem. I'll go and sit in a ditch and watch does for a day or two.

Thanks, apology accepted and that is decent of you, and you are not alone in having issues with the poultry register website.

 

[Jh1986]

I think what people are missing in this case the SGC applicant has several experienced SGC holders who he has shot with and have offered to vouch for and mentor but this has been refused and a £450 course advised.

Someone should maybe investigate why that particular course is being insisted upon then
Brown envelope maybe?

 

[Dickie]

Someone should maybe investigate why that particular course is being insisted upon then

+

Perhaps they should. It was more to remind people of the OP as the always tangent posts and rants take things away from the actual post.

 

[Cyres]

The problem is that Glos FA are continually adding illegal restraints on persons applying for SGC and FACs.
My exposure comes from assisting a member on here who is in Glos.
I will let him post if he thinks it is appropriate.
I do hope BASC can enlighten Glos perhaps the staff should be the first attendees on BASC FEO training course!
D

 

[Archer]

I am a business systems auditor.
When I audit a system I say,
"In this document you say you do xxxxx"
"Please demonstrate how this is carried out and provide evidence to support that you are doing this"
If there are no written instructions I ask
"Why are you doing this?" and issue a fail against that check point.

As I see it, whilst being asked/made to demonstrate training might be desirable/sensible, there is no requirement in HO documents for this to take place as a condition of the issuing of a SGC.

 

[25 Sharps]

It’s not just SGC, a buddy of mine is a club shooter with a safe shooter card for the last 2 years. He has also been shooting with me under the estate rifle rule for around 4 years from vermin at the start up to deer this year. I offered to write him a letter confirming his field experience and A&S point blank refused to accept it, saying he would have to do a course in firearms handling if he wanted a quarry condition other than paid stalks!

The thing is they recommended courses held by 3 different RFDs locally, all of which are presumably unaccredited.

 

[Stalker62]

With zero intent attached I would say a chainsaw or hedge cutter is inherently more dangerous than a shotgun under most common uses and requires no training to purchase or use by an amateur.

Absolutely.

I used chainsaws for about a decade before I went on a week course in Wales. I didn't know how much I didn't know about chainsaws!

Folk are divided on the issue, I get that. Personally, I have always enjoyed learning.

As my wife as oft said about me:-

"Loves a course".

She also frequently reminds me:-

"Four Degrees, and not an ounce of common sense!"



Knowing how much I like to learn about stuff which I know nothing, she even bought me this...



I really must get around to reading it one of these days...

 

[shakey jake]

Some one compared this scenario to driving, once you are 17 you can have a car license and learn to drive with an appropriate pasanger for as long as you like, if you sit a test and meet the mi n requirements you can drive on your own. The test is to a confirmed standard by trained persons.
If i set up shakeys gun handling and give out shakeys pass paper for spending the day with me have i made the world safer? Will any one fail or is attendance enough?

 

[Dickie]

Some one compared this scenario to driving, once you are 17 you can have a car license and learn to drive with an appropriate pasanger for as long as you like, if you sit a test and meet the mi n requirements you can drive on your own. The test is to a confirmed standard by trained persons.
If i set up shakeys gun handling and give out shakeys pass paper for spending the day with me have i made the world safer? Will any one fail or is attendance enough?

Only if you supply a chinsey certificate and charge £450

 

[25 Sharps]

Please accept my apologies Conor. Long day, fighting with the b***dy website trying to register 6 flaming bantams etc. when I could have been doing something I needed to do. I then saw Gloucs Police being an extension of the problem. My post was ill mannered, bad tempered and no better than you'd expect from an angry 3 yr old. Also not helpful to the OP who has a genuine problem. I'll go and sit in a ditch and watch does for a day or two.

Thank you for this I was unaware garden flocks have to be registered. I’ve just tried and the online system is down!

 

[disco_ike]

Thank you for this I was unaware garden flicks have to be registered. I’ve just tried and the online system is down!

In the way the usual British sarcasm hits people have been registering cooked chickens, rubber chickens and all sorts so strain is being placed on it.

 

[eggy74]

In the way the usual British sarcasm hits people have been registering cooked chickens, rubber chickens and all sorts so strain is being placed on it.

choked chickens?

 

[shakey jake]

Only if you supply a chinsey certificate and charge £450

For £450, ill give you a badge and patch aswell

 

[KimE]

Law is something that comes from primary and secondary legislation, or in some cases Common law. Legal precedent, often referred to as case law, if it has come from a court of record, is guidance on interpretation of said legislation which can still be superseded by another court. Case law is often, but not always, pertinent to a particular set of circumstances and not a generalisation.

It is not a FEO’s job to interpret legislation, that is the preserve of the courts, any more than it is your job to interpret any legislation.

Whilst training is certainly a good idea, if such a condition be imposed then it must be clear to any applicant at the very start of the process. The requirement must also be ethically and educationally valid. As others have alluded to there are many other countries that have just such.

Playing devils advocate, in all the years we’ve the firearms and shotgun legislation, how many deaths are caused on an annual basis as a result of lack of ‘training’? IIRC it is about two deaths a year from legitimate firearms users, whilst unfortunate statistically insignificant in a population of nearly 70 million.

So its about doubble the rate of legal firearm deaths as in Sweden (Police excluded). Most accident happens while hunting, competition shooting seems as a safer sport (we do have more firearm safety training in pistol and rifle competition).

 

[25 Sharps]

All the data is available from the Office of National Statistics (ONS).

As a quick 'snap shot' (poor choice of words I grant you), from 2013 - 2018 it is about 2 fatalities a year.

Numbers aside, I do not get the aversion to training?

Do you think it is OK for folks to jump into a car and drive on the motorways without training?
I do know that people do this.

I also know that 'trained' drivers crash. I also know that 'trained' firearms holders have accidents/incidents.

It is not a panacea, but surely, a wee bit of instruction cannot be a bad thing?

The aversion is the financial burden that could prevent new entrants to the sport.

 

[fixedwheel]

One other thing that came to mind when both my brain cells came into gravitational range of each other, and I don't whether others have cogitated this, or pointed this out to various FLDs & FEOs, (maybe @Conor O'Gorman may know) but one huge question:-

Would the various FLDs & FEOs be able to do the job they are supposed to be doing quicker, if they stuck to the statutory guidelines, rather than adding extra unnecessary work by checking on training that is not required, or indeed doing land checks that are not required? (Scotland seems to have managed to ditch those)

 

[Dunwaters]

All the data is available from the Office of National Statistics (ONS).

As a quick 'snap shot' (poor choice of words I grant you), from 2013 - 2018 it is about 2 fatalities a year.

Numbers aside, I do not get the aversion to training?

Do you think it is OK for folks to jump into a car and drive on the motorways without training?
I do know that people do this.

I also know that 'trained' drivers crash. I also know that 'trained' firearms holders have accidents/incidents.

It is not a panacea, but surely, a wee bit of instruction cannot be a bad thing?

Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
The applicant is being told that they need training to get your SGC but the legislation doesn’t support the insistence on training as a pre requisite of grant of cert.
You also don't seem to have a nationally recognised training scheme at the moment.
Is a bit of training a good thing? Definitely.
Should it be mandatory? Show me the evidence that it will improve safety and not just be used as another means of reducing firearms ownership and participation in shooting sports.
The statistics should be easy to source, most European countries are doing it and doubtless can point to the achieved improvements in safety since the adoption of their test regimes.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

One other thing that came to mind when both my brain cells came into gravitational range of each other, and I don't whether others have cogitated this, or pointed this out to various FLDs & FEOs, (maybe @Conor O'Gorman may know) but one huge question:-

Would the various FLDs & FEOs be able to do the job they are supposed to be doing quicker, if they stuck to the statutory guidelines, rather than adding extra unnecessary work by checking on training that is not required, or indeed doing land checks that are not required? (Scotland seems to have managed to ditch those)

Correct and I enjoyed the analogy of the gravitational pull of brain cells coming together, that resonates and I might steal that! My take is that it's just another example of people involved in decision making over others (whether private or public sector) and when people are granted positions of power over other fellow human beings it attracts certain sorts of unnecessary impositions coming into being and inevitably there is mission creep and so far as firearms licensing is concerned it's a constant battle across over 40 police forces reigning that in.