Channel 4 Tonight RSPB Evidence Grouse Moor Keepers Killing Birds Of Prey

[countrryboy]

I think some of you are missing the point with this thread. Forget how they got the video and audio. It is exactly what it is. The fact is that this will be shown on National TV. Yes, the individuals will be prosecuted, and so they should be. However, we will all be tarred with the same brush. This will turn out to be a pivotal moment. Without doubt there will be serious consequences for all of us coming out of their actions.

It doesnae really matter if its real or not ( i very strongly suspect its entirely set up)
It will be shown on tv and we will be tarred with the same brush anyway.
Its a win for them anyway, and an even bigger win were all fighting and believing its real.

How many times have they cried wolf got front page headlines only to be found no story after all.
Omce u have the headline the actual facts dont matter.

Dead shot tagged birds coming back to life or scotlands biggest mass raptor poisioning offering big rrwards and all goes quiet when they have inadvertantly caused it themselves.

 

[wellywoodie]

Here is the link to Channel 4 News section on Raptor persecution

Exclusive: Secret filming reveals the killing of rare Hen Harriers on grouse moors

The RSPB launch their Birdcrime report this week. It says that the past two years have seen the highest number of rare Hen Harriers disappearing, and killed under suspicious circumstances, since records began.

www.channel4.com

 

[deerstalker.308]

U are kidding arent u?

On thousands off acres of moorland they have a camera in the perfect place the exact time theyre going to do sonerhing illegal.
Wot nonesense.
And absolutely perfect sound quality.

Bloody hell the radios never work that clearly on a shoot day when u have the other radio in ur hand.
Amd there picking it up crystal clear from meters away with a hidden camera in heather??
Most hill shoots will be using decent radios pretty sure theyre all encrypted and tied to the others in the set.
Chances of rspb having same brand on the right channel?

I cant believe anyones taking that clip seriously.

Absolutely nothibg ilkegal happened ib the clip even if the codes they were talkung about were real.

Lets look at actual facts Hh are breeding more succesfully now than for last 100 years.
The most succesful nests are on managed grouse moors.
Most of the failed nests are often 'monitored' possibly far too closely by rspb volanteers etc.
Which is never talked about.
Alastair mitchel used to write good articles every year in the STs with the stats of nest succeses/failures, im slightly out of touch now as dobt buy the ST now.

Generally speaking 1st year mortality of any appex predator is high, so with the added stress of living in such a harsh climate its only natural HH mortality will be naturally high.
Its also perfectly normal for them to be dying naturally on grouse moors as rhats where most of food and better habitat and other HH so any tussles over territory will be, so they are going to die where they spend most of their time.

Even if this vid is exactly wot it says it is and the keeper is looking to kill an HH.
How many do u think hes killing in a year?
Bear in mind Langholm 1 and 2 had a peak of roughly 24 and 17 pairs over i think 15K acres.
Amd it was an absolute freak to have numbers anywhere near that.
Most moors will be lucky to have 1 or 2 HH on them.
So even if the keeper is breaking the law ur still talking very small numbers ( which is significant in the small but growing HH population)

So again thousands of acres of moorland, perfect camera angles, perfect sound quality on an illegal act hes ( assuming he is illegally persecuting them) hes committing 1 or 2 times a year.
And all placed and monitored without being seen and no suspicions raised, no strange cars parked etc
Whoever placed the cameras should be buying a lottery ticket, the odds of all those coming in is massive esp on a nice day when not blowing a gale


And before i get the burying head in sand etc comments.
So many shooters are happy to believe grouse keepers do this.
And they will be but the numbers will be absolutely tiny.

Before u take the moral high ground.
I have just deleted some as unlike many im not going to throw another type of shooting under the bus.
But all i'll say is not an upland problem infacr i'd say the oppisate it true.

Believe u me as soon as grouse shooting is licensed and legislated out off viability ( in scotland it may not be far off now, with snaring ban, stoats in fenns, muirburn rules changing, ban on shooting blue hares, GL removal upon SUSPICION of wildlife crime, hell even the hunting ban 2 dog rule + plus ur licensing to shoot even 1 grouse. Most off those rules are relatively recent last 5 years or so)
Most scottish moors run at a massive massive loss anyway.
Its when waders and all these other once common birds finally disapear as managed moors are the only place their thriving.
But far far far too late when theyre all gone.
And plenty of documented cases where thats exactly wot happens

All the same tactics will switch to low land shoots
Dont be to quick to believe clips like that,

Think you quite succinctly demonstrated my point. Well done, bravo, great job.

 

[Trickyd66]

Just seems completely wrong to me. Last few words along the lines of "just creep up on it, and if you can get within 5 yards have it" 5 yards there would be little evidence left.

 

[jimmy milnes]

That’s gie handy that the camera was exactly where the supposed gamekeeper was going to sit? All that acreage of moorland and he sat where the camera was? What’s the chances

And the audio is so crystal clear on the clip I saw on YouTube, even though looking at the grasses that are blowing suggests a decent wind.
If they've done it hawl them over the coals but as with many documentaries it's about sensationalism TV, and not the 100% truth sometimes.
Jimmy

 

[jall55]

And the audio is so crystal clear on the clip I saw on YouTube, even though looking at the grasses that are blowing suggests a decent wind.
If they've done it hawl them over the coals but as with many documentaries it's about sensationalism TV, and not the 100% truth sometimes.
Jimmy

Its voiced over Jimmy

 

[Mr. Gain]

Is the video "evidence"? Scarcely. It's just a way of putting an anti shooting agenda on screens and in minds. The RSPB strategically manufacture outrage to generate donations. Disinformation attacks on grouse moor management are particularly heinous because keepered moors are vital reserves for many at-risk species, many of them species that the RSPB is failing to protect on its own ground. Be wary of believing any claims from such compromised organisations and understand that broadcasters have space to fill and need to get eyeballs on their stories to survive and prosper.

 

[jimmy milnes]

Its voiced over Jimmy

Ah didn't say that on the you tube I saw sorry

 

[Sinistral]

Is the video "evidence"? Scarcely. It's just a way of putting an anti shooting agenda on screens and in minds. The RSPB strategically manufacture outrage to generate donations. Disinformation attacks on grouse moor management are particularly heinous because keepered moors are vital reserves for many at-risk species, many of them species that the RSPB is failing to protect on its own ground. Be wary of believing any claims from such compromised organisations and understand that broadcasters have space to fill and need to get eyeballs on their stories to survive and prosper.

There's really only one point to make about all this.
If the RSPB footage satisfies the standard for criminal evidence then the perps will get their just deserts. If not, this degree of C4 coverage and website comment means the whole thing was fabricated, and the people filmed will have a convincing legal case for damages against both organisations. Somebody here or out there knows who the individuals are, and which estate it is so it's only a matter of time before we hear more. I'm going to wait and see what becomes of it before taking a side.

Raptor Persecution UK

raptorpersecutionuk.org

 

[nun_hunter]

U are kidding arent u?

On thousands off acres of moorland they have a camera in the perfect place the exact time theyre going to do sonerhing illegal.
Wot nonesense.
And absolutely perfect sound quality.

Bloody hell the radios never work that clearly on a shoot day when u have the other radio in ur hand.
Amd there picking it up crystal clear from meters away with a hidden camera in heather??
Most hill shoots will be using decent radios pretty sure theyre all encrypted and tied to the others in the set.
Chances of rspb having same brand on the right channel?

I cant believe anyones taking that clip seriously.

Absolutely nothibg ilkegal happened ib the clip even if the codes they were talkung about were real.

Lets look at actual facts Hh are breeding more succesfully now than for last 100 years.
The most succesful nests are on managed grouse moors.
Most of the failed nests are often 'monitored' possibly far too closely by rspb volanteers etc.
Which is never talked about.
Alastair mitchel used to write good articles every year in the STs with the stats of nest succeses/failures, im slightly out of touch now as dobt buy the ST now.

Generally speaking 1st year mortality of any appex predator is high, so with the added stress of living in such a harsh climate its only natural HH mortality will be naturally high.
Its also perfectly normal for them to be dying naturally on grouse moors as rhats where most of food and better habitat and other HH so any tussles over territory will be, so they are going to die where they spend most of their time.

Even if this vid is exactly wot it says it is and the keeper is looking to kill an HH.
How many do u think hes killing in a year?
Bear in mind Langholm 1 and 2 had a peak of roughly 24 and 17 pairs over i think 15K acres.
Amd it was an absolute freak to have numbers anywhere near that.
Most moors will be lucky to have 1 or 2 HH on them.
So even if the keeper is breaking the law ur still talking very small numbers ( which is significant in the small but growing HH population)

So again thousands of acres of moorland, perfect camera angles, perfect sound quality on an illegal act hes ( assuming he is illegally persecuting them) hes committing 1 or 2 times a year.
And all placed and monitored without being seen and no suspicions raised, no strange cars parked etc
Whoever placed the cameras should be buying a lottery ticket, the odds of all those coming in is massive esp on a nice day when not blowing a gale


And before i get the burying head in sand etc comments.
So many shooters are happy to believe grouse keepers do this.
And they will be but the numbers will be absolutely tiny.

Before u take the moral high ground.
I have just deleted some as unlike many im not going to throw another type of shooting under the bus.
But all i'll say is not an upland problem infacr i'd say the oppisate it true.

Believe u me as soon as grouse shooting is licensed and legislated out off viability ( in scotland it may not be far off now, with snaring ban, stoats in fenns, muirburn rules changing, ban on shooting blue hares, GL removal upon SUSPICION of wildlife crime, hell even the hunting ban 2 dog rule + plus ur licensing to shoot even 1 grouse. Most off those rules are relatively recent last 5 years or so)
Most scottish moors run at a massive massive loss anyway.
Its when waders and all these other once common birds finally disapear as managed moors are the only place their thriving.
But far far far too late when theyre all gone.
And plenty of documented cases where thats exactly wot happens

All the same tactics will switch to low land shoots
Dont be to quick to believe clips like that,

There's every chance someone on the estate who disagreed with the illegal killing of raptors helped the RSPB set up the cameras because they knew those in charge were doing nothing about it.

When I go into the woods to look for deer I have my favourite locations to sit up and wait. Places with good sight lines, phone reception, animal activity, sheltered from the wind and rain etc. I'm sure moorland keepers have the same places they frequent that aren't hard to locate for organisations like the RSPB or a disgruntled employee from the same estate.

 

[countrryboy]

There's every chance someone on the estate who disagreed with the illegal killing of raptors helped the RSPB set up the cameras because they knew those in charge were doing nothing about it.

When I go into the woods to look for deer I have my favourite locations to sit up and wait. Places with good sight lines, phone reception, animal activity, sheltered from the wind and rain etc. I'm sure moorland keepers have the same places they frequent that aren't hard to locate for organisations like the RSPB or a disgruntled employee from the same estate.

I totally agree with u.
I uded to do a fair bit of picking up on grouse moors, 1 on paticular for over a decade.
All the pickers had there favourite places to sit/lie and watch a drive and mark birds down.
But its amazing 1 day u sit a few feet to left or right and its a slightly different view.
So even if u have described the point accurately, which even itself is a miracle.
Most grouse moors are quite similar. Amount of times been told a bird down by the white grass/burnt patch or heather clump whicg are all everywhere on a moor

Many on here will have experience setting trail cams on well established tracks or feeders and its still hard to get a perfect picture and sound and thats placing the camera at hieght and u generally site it in an open area.

Are u really expecting they sited it almost perfectly in long heather its field of view would be tiny.

If there is a crime committed they should face the full force of the law.
But this clip has so many massive holes in it im surprised anyones taking it seriously.
This is pure propoganda im only suprised they didnt hold it rill august the 10th or so

Also at the point hes talking about 'jets' is there not a noise in the back ground?
U know like a low flying jet.

 

[jall55]

I totally agree with u.
I uded to do a fair bit of picking up on grouse moors, 1 on paticular for over a decade.
All the pickers had there favourite places to sit/lie and watch a drive and mark birds down.
But its amazing 1 day u sit a few feet to left or right and its a slightly different view.
So even if u have described the point accurately, which even itself is a miracle.
Most grouse moors are quite similar. Amount of times been told a bird down by the white grass/burnt patch or heather clump whicg are all everywhere on a moor

Many on here will have experience setting trail cams on well established tracks or feeders and its still hard to get a perfect picture and sound and thats placing the camera at hieght and u generally site it in an open area.

Are u really expecting they sited it almost perfectly in long heather its field of view would be tiny.

If there is a crime committed they should face the full force of the law.
But this clip has so many massive holes in it im surprised anyones taking it seriously.
This is pure propoganda im only suprised they didnt hold it rill august the 10th or so

Also at the point hes talking about 'jets' is there not a noise in the back ground?
U know like a low flying jet.

The other thing is with the wind blowing that grass my batteries would be flat in an hour ! and my card full

 

[Pelyma]

Why was it not given straight to the Police? Why did it come out the same time as the RSPB report which usually covers a 1 year period but this time a 15 year period ( 2023 continued the downward trend) the confirmed incidents that they report haven't all been confirmed by the Police either. Raptor persecution is wrong but so is fabricating the truth.

 

[Basil H]

I wonder if all the commentators on this topic realise that harriers use regular communal roost sites outside the breeding season. Cameras would be sited appropriately.

 

[sikamalc]

The stupidity of these people is beyond belief. We are not in Victorian times, and frankly I hope those involved in such criminal activity feel the full force of the law. There is no place in our countryside for such people, or estates that undertake criminal activities.

 

[countrryboy]

These threads always depress me,
I struggle to see how fellow shooters are always so quick to believe the headlines and spin.
Never even think to question it, wot chance have we with the general public.

That video 'evidence' is a joke, i tell u wot i hope im never on trial by the SD massive.
Ive spent a lot off time on moors working and training dogs to get such clear covert footage and audio, esp without being seen setting it up.
Even with a host of cameras set up and insider tip offs on the site its still a long shot.
Thats not a needle in a haystack thats a needle in a field of haystacks.
That keeper may well be guility i have no idea, wasnae there and dont know him.

But completely ignoring that.
Lets look at actual facts.
Here some numbers.

HH are at the highest population for 200 years.
Still a small vulnerable population thou.
Breeding pop varies in Eng between 30- 50 pairs, if succesful averaging between 3-4 chicks fledged ( so ur looking at between 50 - 120 chicks a year, 119 was the record)
75% of succesful nests on driven grouse moors
Its widely accepted natural mortality can be anything up to 60% in year 1.
There was no succesful nests before 2013 in Eng for a long time.
But even from 2016 before the Brood recovery scheme started there is a 1150% increase in HH numbers.

The brood recovery program is 1 of the most succesful in the world and the Rspb was in the high court only 3 years ago trying to stop it.
Wot does that tell u about the Rspb motives? Woried they were going to lose the 'golden goose' for donations.
If the Rspb truely cared about birds/wildlife a simple campign to encourage cat owners to attach a bell to there collar would svae millions and millions of birds lifes a year.
Would cost pennies

U boys on here all shoot so ur familar with the sort of numbers and % u have to cull to keep populations stable or rising etc.
So say u have 100 chicks 1 year 60 could very easily die in a normal year, possibly even more in a bad year.
So u only have 40 left, population is still rising fairly rapidly so most of that 40 must be surviving.
So wot are all these grouse keepers shooting??
The Rspb would have u believe its common place and stanard practice, yet how common can it really be??
30 or 40+ years ago i would believe it not now.
Yes it will go on but very occasionally
The numbers dont lie.

They talk about 15K wildlife crimes, i bet the actual amount the poluce take seriously will be well well under 10% of that.
Generally speaking confirmed cases are at all time lows.

Also HH need grouse moors.
Look at Langholm, 1st JRG study HH pairs were up in high 20s just as grouse numbers hit a trough as grouse pops were very cyclic back then.
So shooting no longer sustainable, no burning no predator control.
HH numbers went into free fall and back to the 2 pair they always had.
Before Langholm 2 they were almost goung to take the SPA of langholm as HH numbers were so low.
History is about to repeat itself again
Habitat management and predator control stopped. HH numbers declining, only a matter of time till the SPA is removed.

 

[Pelyma]

These threads always depress me,
I struggle to see how fellow shooters are always so quick to believe the headlines and spin.
Never even think to question it, wot chance have we with the general public.

That video 'evidence' is a joke, i tell u wot i hope im never on trial by the SD massive.
Ive spent a lot off time on moors working and training dogs to get such clear covert footage and audio, esp without being seen setting it up.
Even with a host of cameras set up and insider tip offs on the site its still a long shot.
Thats not a needle in a haystack thats a needle in a field of haystacks.
That keeper may well be guility i have no idea, wasnae there and dont know him.

But completely ignoring that.
Lets look at actual facts.
Here some numbers.

HH are at the highest population for 200 years.
Still a small vulnerable population thou.
Breeding pop varies in Eng between 30- 50 pairs, if succesful averaging between 3-4 chicks fledged ( so ur looking at between 50 - 120 chicks a year, 119 was the record)
75% of succesful nests on driven grouse moors
Its widely accepted natural mortality can be anything up to 60% in year 1.
There was no succesful nests before 2013 in Eng for a long time.
But even from 2016 before the Brood recovery scheme started there is a 1150% increase in HH numbers.

The brood recovery program is 1 of the most succesful in the world and the Rspb was in the high court only 3 years ago trying to stop it.
Wot does that tell u about the Rspb motives? Woried they were going to lose the 'golden goose' for donations.
If the Rspb truely cared about birds/wildlife a simple campign to encourage cat owners to attach a bell to there collar would svae millions and millions of birds lifes a year.
Would cost pennies

U boys on here all shoot so ur familar with the sort of numbers and % u have to cull to keep populations stable or rising etc.
So say u have 100 chicks 1 year 60 could very easily die in a normal year, possibly even more in a bad year.
So u only have 40 left, population is still rising fairly rapidly so most of that 40 must be surviving.
So wot are all these grouse keepers shooting??
The Rspb would have u believe its common place and stanard practice, yet how common can it really be??
30 or 40+ years ago i would believe it not now.
Yes it will go on but very occasionally
The numbers dont lie.

They talk about 15K wildlife crimes, i bet the actual amount the poluce take seriously will be well well under 10% of that.
Generally speaking confirmed cases are at all time lows.

Also HH need grouse moors.
Look at Langholm, 1st JRG study HH pairs were up in high 20s just as grouse numbers hit a trough as grouse pops were very cyclic back then.
So shooting no longer sustainable, no burning no predator control.
HH numbers went into free fall and back to the 2 pair they always had.
Before Langholm 2 they were almost goung to take the SPA of langholm as HH numbers were so low.
History is about to repeat itself again
Habitat management and predator control stopped. HH numbers declining, only a matter of time till the SPA is removed.

Spot on. Follow the money, this is why the report has changed from its usual format.

 

[baguio]

Even if the video and commentary is genuine (which I highly doubt), what crime has actually been committed? Is bird watching whilst in possession of a firearm a criminal offence? If that is a crime then I suspect that most of us on here should expect a knock at the door very soon?
Gullible isn't a strong enough would for most on here and I really hope that none of you are ever called up to do jury service!

 

[baguio]

Its voiced over Jimmy

Voiced over because the actually audio is impossible to hear? Oh right, so how did the person doing the voice over hear it well enough to voice over it?

 

[jall55]

Voiced over because the actually audio is impossible to hear? Oh right, so how did the person doing the voice over hear it well enough to voice over it?

I think it says to disguise the voices - which is i think fair enough