Wanted: 38 special ammunition (for my club)

[markyw]

I am currently having issues sourcing quantities of 38 special ammunition due to an apparent shortage and a distribution network that cannot or will not quote lead times.
Does anyone know of a reliable source, preferably in the South East, that I can get an interim stock of at a reasonable price (< £24/50). The cupboard at the club is almost bare and I want to keep the members without FACs shooting, if I can.
Looking for 2000 rounds.

Regards

 

[enfieldspares]

Try Joe Beatham at Gunshop EB? Or maybe look at the idea of loading your own using a good quality progressive? Some prices:

Small Pistol Primers​	100​	500​	1000​
500​	CCI​	£12-60​	£61-00​	£112-00​
1 1/2​	Remington​	£12-60​	£61-00​	£112-00​
SLP​	Winchester​	£12-60​	£61-00​	£112-00​
2104334​	RWS Packs of 250​	£27-00​	£52-00​	£95-00​

Lead Pistol Bullets​	​	1000​
.38"/.357"​	Sellier & Bellot 148 Grain Lead WC Boxed in 100s​	£22-85​	£190-00​
.38"/.357"​	Magtech 148 Grain Lead WC Bagged in 100s​	£22-85​	£190-00​
.38"/.357"​	158 Grain TC GM Cast Lead Boxed in 500s​	£47-50​	£85-00​

 

[KEITHKILVO1]

Dauntsey guns if you fancy a bit of a trip.

 

[aris]

Try itl shooting supplies based in chertsey Surrey

Not too far from you and I know he supplies clubs.

Joe @ EB is retiring - selling off his stock according to web page.

 

[A Shot in the dark]

I am currently having issues sourcing quantities of 38 special ammunition due to an apparent shortage and a distribution network that cannot or will not quote lead times.
Does anyone know of a reliable source, preferably in the South East, that I can get an interim stock of at a reasonable price (< £24/50). The cupboard at the club is almost bare and I want to keep the members without FACs shooting, if I can.
Looking for 2000 rounds.

Regards

I can't believed that you don't have some one the club who does not reload! You're going have lots of empty cases for 38's and the cost is about half the price of new factory ammo.
The club that I go to have 2 x Dillon 1000 presses and produce around 1000 in an hour and have done so for the last 20 or 30 years!

 

[DanTheMan]

Try itl shooting supplies based in chertsey Surrey

Not too far from you and I know he supplies clubs.

Joe @ EB is retiring - selling off his stock according to web page.

Yes ITL supplies our club with .38 & .22

 

[markyw]

Thanks for the suggestions. Will give ITL a call, as he is closest.
As for reloading, many of us do reload, but I believe there may be insurance challenges with supplying and using reloaded ammunition, especially for guests and probationers (i.e. not full members). I'll look into this though, as that would be the best solution to cope with the ever more frequent shortages.

Regards

Mark

 

[Digger686]

There are definitely insurance issues with letting others use your reloaded ammo, especially when this isn't on a friend-to-friend basis.

By all means get a press and sell the necessary components (primers, powder, bullets, cases) to users, and allow them to load their own. This can be done under supervision where needed, especially if the person is inexperienced or has not completed the NRA Hand Loading Course or similar.

Also - and more importantly - as far as I am aware, selling reloaded ammunition is illegal in the UK, unless it has the proper CIP certification. This applies even when not sold for profit.

 

[markyw]

Also - and more importantly - as far as I am aware, selling reloaded ammunition is illegal in the UK, unless it has the proper CIP certification. This applies even when not sold for profit.

Thanks Digger. What's your view on a reimbursement for consumables approach, rather then selling ammunition? Do you think this lessens the liability any?
Have a question out with the NRA on this, so will post if we get anything back.

Regards

Mark

 

[palmer_mike]

Also - and more importantly - as far as I am aware, selling reloaded ammunition is illegal in the UK, unless it has the proper CIP certification. This applies even when not sold for profit.

that’s not my understanding of the situation at all, and also not my experience of the practice of some U.K. manufacturers (until recently I worked for one)

 

[disco_ike]

Try MBR sporting at Bisley, think he had a bit when I last spoke with him.

 

[SpikeD]

I thought the UK was still signed up to the CIP if so does the following still not apply? The last time i bought any Kynamco ammunition it has "CIP approved" on the box.

The Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives (Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms – commonly abbreviated as C.I.P. or CIP) is an international organisation which sets standards for safety testing of firearms. (The word portatives (portable) in the name refers to the fact the C.I.P. tests small arms almost exclusively; it is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) As of 2014, its members are the national governments of 14 countries, of which 12 are in Europe. The C.I.P. safeguards that all firearms and ammunition sold to civilian purchasers in member states are safe for the users.

To achieve this, all such firearms are first proof tested at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses. The same applies for cartridges; at regular intervals, cartridges are tested against the C.I.P. pressure specifications at the ammunition manufacturing plants and at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

It's been discussed here a few times but if you don't believe that what you are doing is illegal, from a layman's point of view there are 2 questions to answer:

Could this be considered as "trade" if so you will need an RFD, are you confident you could prove it isn't if you are doing it on a regular basis and selling reloads.

If you believe you don't need to have ammunition tested and certified what provisions have you made should a liability claim arise for damage or injury /death that can be attributed to your home loaded ammunition.

Any such incident is sure to raise question 1 though that might be the least of your worries in the event of an incident.

 

[Digger686]

Thanks Digger. What's your view on a reimbursement for consumables approach, rather then selling ammunition? Do you think this lessens the liability any?
Have a question out with the NRA on this, so will post if we get anything back.

Regards

Mark

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but I see two possible meanings...

If you mean selling the reloaded ammunition for cost price - ie. the cost of the various components - that is still selling, just not for profit.

If you mean selling the various components for someone to load their own using for example Club equipment - such as enough primers, powder, bullets to load 100 rounds - that should be fine. A competent Club member or person could assemble the components (after purchase) on behalf of a non-FAC holder, as long as they are not paid for doing so. The usual rules for acquiring components would need to be followed and the Club would probably want to run details of the arrangement past their insurers.

 

[Liveonce]

This has been looked at before Mike got this from the Birmingham proof house, but you do need CIP to export.
You also need to comply with the classification law and dangerous good act if transporting ammunition commercially.

 

[Digger686]

This has been looked at before Mike got this from the Birmingham proof house, but you do need CIP to export.
You also need to comply with the classification law and dangerous good act if transporting ammunition commercially.

View attachment 392052

Thank you for that, I'm always to happy to learn something.

In terms of the Firearms Act, does selling ammunition in a Club scenario avoid the need for registration as an RFD?

 

[SpikeD]

Good to know about the CIP status, back in the day if your club had one of the below then you could manufacture a lot of rounds in short order, though they were temperamental.

I'm not sure on the club selling ammunition as when I first started in .22"RF shooting both the clubs sold ammunition as it was the only way to acquire it although if you didn't have an FAC then it remained in the club, if you did have an FAC then it was entered on your certificate if you wanted to take it away. I don't believe the club was registered as an RFD but was a Home Office approved club so I'm thinking this was part of the application and licence issued.

For guest days now, the guests are typically non-FAC holders so do buy factory from the club. So for reloads I guess it comes down to does your club insurance cover this.

 

[palmer_mike]

I thought the UK was still signed up to the CIP if so does the following still not apply? The last time i bought any Kynamco ammunition it has "CIP approved" on the box.

Such labels come in a roll and are pre printed with all the information except that which is specific to the particular batch being packaged.

The CIP logo is pre printed on the box.

It might be that certain (if not most) batches do not get inspection by the proof house…….

The proof house confirmed to the company I worked for in writing that although a requirement in every other CIP country, due to some grey area in the law AMMUNITION CIP testing is not enforceable by law in the U.K. Firearms proof IS enforceable by law.

 

[palmer_mike]

This has been looked at before Mike got this from the Birmingham proof house, but you do need CIP to export.
You also need to comply with the classification law and dangerous good act if transporting ammunition commercially.

View attachment 392052

Correct