Daily Mail - Too many wild deer are roaming England's forests. Can promoting venison to consumers help?

[Kane01]

‘Stalkers’ having/ buying the shooting rights and only shooting very few deer whilst those who would take far more are denied access to the land are a big part.

There’s plenty of shooters who would love to have a bit of stalking land and spend time on it but Money talks.

I tried the latter dozens of times where I live, tried to contact countless landowners and farmers, even tried to give my details to the local RFDs to give out to people wanting basic pest control done as a way in.
Nothing, so saved up my pennies and now get to shoot a pair of Roe Deer each year and as many vermin as I can in the south of Scotland, I dont like it that way, but it was my only way to get into stalking and shooting on private land.

 

[Kane01]

I agree with VSS with the hygiene of carcasses being a factor in people eating venison, I know a stalker who got very sick with campylobacter due to eating dodgy venison he had shot, and that even put me off a little bit considering I was about to go stalking with him!!!
One of the very very few positives of the whole lockdown era was that peoples attitudes to hygiene have changed for the better, and whilst some of the older stalkers I have met have very lax views on hygiene in the field, I think its slowly changing.

 

[Bugsy]

Just because something's been done in a certain way for hundreds of years, doesn't mean it's the right way going forward. And perhaps it hasn't worked as well as you'd like to think it has over the centuries, otherwise venison would have a better reputation than it currently does.
If there are changes that stalkers can make to the way that they do things that would result in better presented carcasses then they should be looking for practical ways to incorporate some of those changes into their routine.
Not wanting to try to improve carcass quality for fear of being "a laughing stock" is just the sort of attitude that's holding the carcass price down.
[/QUOTE. My attitude is I don’t need to improve my carcass quality because in 45years I’ve never had one rejected but I’ve been in larders where I’ve seen some shi.e shooting and gralloching but it’s nothing to do with the ground they get gralloched on .. a lot of people new to shooting on this site will think a hoist is a must to be able to deliver a quality perfect spotless clean carcass when in reality a clean bit of ground to gralloch is acceptable ,might have to take a tree with me to the hill to suspend it from everybody has different views but hopefully we get the same result in the end .

 

[Bugsy]

My game dealer has got a lot stricter, and too be honest seeing what I have in the past hanging in the chiller has been a disgrace.
So, he requested no suspended gralloch (although some still do, as do I on occasion) legs and head off back at the larder, and also the 'back end', no backside out and they get rejected, and no payment.
He was having his FSA inspection last year, I rocked up with 3 reds, the inspector watched me as I did the above, all good, although I was a little nervous.
But, he is still only paying £1/kg
More is coming in than he can push on, his freezers are almost full, and he has dropped his price to the retailers, and supplies tons to the country food trust.
Sorry to say, at the end of the day venison is an acquired taste, zero to do with how the public perceive us 'hunters'
The farmers still want them culled, some are telling me to drag them into the woods to rot.
It will never happen, but if the government want them reduced, they need to start paying a bounty for it.

By the way, as a I guide I can assure anyone that thinks I keep them for the clients is total tosh, apart from weekends I'm out every day, Friday I have organised a cull day, speaking for myself if it's brown its down. Without paying clients I couldn't make a modest, very modest profit.

But don't worry. the British Quality Wild Venison assurance scheme will rectify all of this

Christ .. who would leave its arse in and think that was acceptable .. how much do you’s have to pay to be a member of BQWV down your way .

 

[Bugsy]

I agree with VSS with the hygiene of carcasses being a factor in people eating venison, I know a stalker who got very sick with campylobacter due to eating dodgy venison he had shot, and that even put me off a little bit considering I was about to go stalking with him!!!
One of the very very few positives of the whole lockdown era was that peoples attitudes to hygiene have changed for the better, and whilst some of the older stalkers I have met have very lax views on hygiene in the field, I think its slowly changing.

Sounds more like he ate undercooked venison or it was contaminated some other way .. everybody’s gut handles food differently .. I know a fella down my way that used to eat a lot of road kill and he even tried badger soup he’s 80 and still strolling on

 

[Shootgun]

So a roe buck was shot on November 4th?

 

[Jon P]

So a roe buck was shot on November 4th?

Scotland?

 

[Shootgun]

Scotland?

Winchester, Hampshire

 

[Jon P]

Winchester, Hampshire

could not see in previous thread where a Roe buck had been shot in November.

 

[Shootgun]

could not see in previous thread where a Roe buck had been shot in November.

Read the article, link in the first post.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Christ .. who would leave its arse in and think that was acceptable .. how much do you’s have to pay to be a member of BQWV down your way .

From memory the first 2 years was no charge, then around £200/annum, but again that is from memory.
But from the very beginning I decided against being part of the scheme, it has been produced by people who look through rose tinted specs and not real world.
Existing standards work.

 

[Heym SR20]

Discussions of game meat going into the market are pretty irrelevant whilst the retailers, FSA etc etc all give a warning that they may contain lead shot or fragments and that lead is harmful to health.

Whilst on here may disagree that lead is harmfull, the majority of medical professionals, super market buyers etc ill have a different view.

Unless and until the supply chain can certify that all venison is lead free then there is little chance of it being widely consumed, with big buyers such schools, hospitals etc all taking it.

Lets not also forget the power of the large meat producers. In the UK we have allowed our supply chain to be concentrated into a few very large supermarkets, with large industrial scale abbattoirs and etc. and large scale animal and chicken production. They have enormous power and will not want other products entering into the market.

Sadly we have lost much of traditional small scale food production by local producers for local people, and what there is tied up in regulation.

What also does not help is country wide agreements between major landowners and game dealers with fixed price uplift of all carcasses regardless of quality. And then putting in place contracts with cullers, paying on a per beast basis to shoot as many as they can in as short a time frame as possible.

And then remove the easy access to overseas markets.

I don’t think its just the venison market that is buggered. Look at the prices being achieved for lamb, hogget and cattle or grains etc in the wholesale markets. They are not exactly high either, although they do fluctuate hugely.

Our land and land values are hugely skewed. Land in the UK is open to the international market and is seen by many as a safe haven to park cash. You don’t even have to farm it. Plenty of grants available to support doing nothing with it - let it rewild.

Why do large corporates and big institutions buy large tracts of land. They are using it offset carbon. This then allows them to qualify for a much wider audience of funds etc. which in turns will drive up share price, in effect making their land acquisition free.

Then rather than the land being managed by farmers, deer stalkers local foresters etc who are born, live and die on the land, and know it intimately, large land management companies now take over. Contracts are driven from desks and the cheapest contractors are used for any jobs that are done, and the whole process is data driven. Minimal cost is used as the basis for producing as cheaply as possible with this years profit and loss and balance sheet being key. Little thought is given to long term investment.

There are of course the exceptions. One very good friend - runner up in farmer of year awards took over the farm from his father about 25 years ago. A mixed farm, yet his yealds and quality are pretty much double what they were in the 1990’s, but inputs of fertilisers, chemicals are much lower. He has focused on soil quality, building up fertility and working a mixed rotation. But it requires real attention to detail. You can do this with a few hundred acres. But not with thousands of acres under a central contract.

 

[Klenchblaize]

The farmers still want them culled, some are telling me to drag them into the woods to rot.
It will never happen, but if the government want them reduced, they need to start paying a bounty for it.

Thanks for posting this. It's the reality I've been attempting to convey but my belief is SD members are either in denial or reluctant to admit the challenges they face with meaningful disposal of fallow.

Seven or more does left to rot in an 80 acre wood is simply not an option in my part of the Country. Unless, that is, a landowner is prepared to hire a JCB for the morning.

K

 

[Bugsy]

From memory the first 2 years was no charge, then around £200/annum, but again that is from memory.
But from the very beginning I decided against being part of the scheme, it has been produced by people who look through rose tinted specs and not real world.
Existing standards work.

It’s 300 up here from the start , they give you an extra 30p a kilo then on . It’s just another £ ££££ on top of every increasing expenditure to be able to sell . I haven’t worked it out yet whether it’s worth it or not as I’m only shooting about 150 a year privately but I’ll need to look into it .

 

[Heym SR20]

I suppose a lot of the question comes to

Do we make deer Management the preserve of professionals who each shoot several hundred deer a year, with the meat going into the market for consumption

Or

Do we allow many more hunters - many being existing game shots to take up the slack with each shooting a few deer as part of a management plan with the deer carcasses being consumed by hunters, their family and friends.

I think there is a workable hybrid somewhere in the middle, and I can see how shoots will move away from reared phaesants to deer management.

Rather than having 10 guns standing in fields with a line of beaters pushing phaesants. Put those all out across tge estate in individual highseats / stands with instructions on what to shoot. Extraction and gralloching is easy as you have lots of people. Big dinner afterwards. Then butchering day a day or two later.

 

[AGR]

Rather than having 10 guns standing in fields with a line of beaters pushing phaesants. Put those all out across tge estate in individual highseats / stands with instructions on what to shoot. Extraction and gralloching is easy as you have lots of people. Big dinner afterwards. Then butchering day a day or two later.

That is probably the best way to deal with the huge number of fallow in the South East.
Might have to drive them off the industrial estates and across the roads though!

 

[Apthorpe]

Discussions of game meat going into the market are pretty irrelevant whilst the retailers, FSA etc etc all give a warning that they may contain lead shot or fragments and that lead is harmful to health.

Whilst on here may disagree that lead is harmfull, the majority of medical professionals, super market buyers etc ill have a different view.

Unless and until the supply chain can certify that all venison is lead free then there is little chance of it being widely consumed, with big buyers such schools, hospitals etc all taking it.

How can you certify a deer shot with a copper bullet covered in lead styphnate combustion product contamination is lead-free? Not only is it not lead free, but it is covered with biologically active lead contaminants. The lead metal is inert.

Lets not also forget the power of the large meat producers. In the UK we have allowed our supply chain to be concentrated into a few very large supermarkets, with large industrial scale abbattoirs and etc. and large scale animal and chicken production. They have enormous power and will not want other products entering into the market.

Sadly we have lost much of traditional small scale food production by local producers for local people, and what there is tied up in regulation.

What also does not help is country wide agreements between major landowners and game dealers with fixed price uplift of all carcasses regardless of quality. And then putting in place contracts with cullers, paying on a per beast basis to shoot as many as they can in as short a time frame as possible.

And then remove the easy access to overseas markets.

I don’t think its just the venison market that is buggered. Look at the prices being achieved for lamb, hogget and cattle or grains etc in the wholesale markets. They are not exactly high either, although they do fluctuate hugely.

Our land and land values are hugely skewed. Land in the UK is open to the international market and is seen by many as a safe haven to park cash. You don’t even have to farm it. Plenty of grants available to support doing nothing with it - let it rewild.

Why do large corporates and big institutions buy large tracts of land. They are using it offset carbon. This then allows them to qualify for a much wider audience of funds etc. which in turns will drive up share price, in effect making their land acquisition free.

Then rather than the land being managed by farmers, deer stalkers local foresters etc who are born, live and die on the land, and know it intimately, large land management companies now take over. Contracts are driven from desks and the cheapest contractors are used for any jobs that are done, and the whole process is data driven. Minimal cost is used as the basis for producing as cheaply as possible with this years profit and loss and balance sheet being key. Little thought is given to long term investment.

There are of course the exceptions. One very good friend - runner up in farmer of year awards took over the farm from his father about 25 years ago. A mixed farm, yet his yealds and quality are pretty much double what they were in the 1990’s, but inputs of fertilisers, chemicals are much lower. He has focused on soil quality, building up fertility and working a mixed rotation. But it requires real attention to detail. You can do this with a few hundred acres. But not with thousands of acres under a central contract.

 

[Twodogs]

I agree with VSS with the hygiene of carcasses being a factor in people eating venison, I know a stalker who got very sick with campylobacter due to eating dodgy venison he had shot, and that even put me off a little bit considering I was about to go stalking with him!!!
One of the very very few positives of the whole lockdown era was that peoples attitudes to hygiene have changed for the better, and whilst some of the older stalkers I have met have very lax views on hygiene in the field, I think its slowly changing.

Campylobacter, poisoning is often caused by poor personal hygiene practices so not necessarily the result of dodgy meat per se (dodgy can mean many things), which if cooked properly shouldn’t cause an issue.
Everyone has a part to play in reducing the risks of bacterial food poisoning. Food safety must be observed ‘from farm to fork’; by producers, retailers, cooks, consumers, distributers. The appropriate storage and handling of food and thorough cooking will eliminate the risk of bacterial food poisoning.

 

[timbrayford]

How can you certify a deer shot with a copper bullet covered in lead styphnate combustion product contamination is lead-free? Not only is it not lead free, but it is covered with biologically active lead contaminants. The lead metal is inert.

Sadly the whole lead issue is principly a scare story hyped up by the antis to attack shooting sports, hence Packham and his chums purporting that lead is "highly toxic" as opposed to toxic like so many impurities in our food and drink. What the medical authorities have actually said is that they have no test to determine a safe level of lead residue consumption as opposed to there is no safe level, self evident as we aren't all dead or dying from it.

 

[Ratel]

Campylobacter, poisoning is often caused by poor personal hygiene practices so not necessarily the result of dodgy meat per se (dodgy can mean many things), which if cooked properly shouldn’t cause an issue.
Everyone has a part to play in reducing the risks of bacterial food poisoning. Food safety must be observed ‘from farm to fork’; by producers, retailers, cooks, consumers, distributers. The appropriate storage and handling of food and thorough cooking will eliminate the risk of bacterial food poisoning.

I once had Campylobacter from drinking warm goats milk, it was not a pleasant experience
It's so easy to get if what you eat or drink has not been processed properly.
We do have to shoot more deer and at the moment mine are going to good homes. If it comes to taking them to a dealer who gives £1 kg and takes deer from people with no paperwork, I will be feeding the foxes, badgers, ravens etc.